[kiwinacol]

topic has been edited a little to clarify what I meant.

Hello all,

South Dealer
S 6
H KJ943
D A982
C AJ3

North
S KQ3
H AQ2
D 75
C KQT92

1H 2C, 2D 2H, 3C

is 3C a delayed support or a club feature? If you don't get the suit in now you probably never will. How many good minor slams could be missed?
If a shape bid it highlights the spade shortage. If control in partners suit its likely to be the Ace as second round controls (K or x) might be too ambiguous?

Delayed support makes the auction easier but is that standard in this type of sequence.


Another sequence: 1H 2C, 2D 2H, 2S (this isn't directly related to the hands, south has something like 3 5 4 1)

Because we are below 3 and game levels is this also likely to be 3 carder (perhaps 4 carder and not strong enough to reverse)? Thank you, Ash.

[SteveMoe]

2♥ sets trumps. See Ken Rexford's book on modern control bidding.
Therefore 3♣ is a control bid (1st or 2nd round). If you prefer the 2♠ rebid to wait, then consider rebidding 3♠ instead.

[helene_t]

Standard is that 3♣ is patterning out, showing three clubs and thereby showing the spade shortness. But of course you can agree to play it as a control bid.

BTW I don't think it is universal that 2♥ promises three cards. If it doesn't then obviously 3♣ is natural since we are still looking for our fit.

[wank]

cuebids at the 4 level (and 3S if H are trumps).

naturalish shape showing at the 2 and 3 level - you have plenty of space for cue/controls later

[steve2005]

wank, on 2016-March-25, 09:37, said:

cuebids at the 4 level (and 3S if H are trumps).

naturalish shape showing at the 2 and 3 level - you have plenty of space for cue/controls later

You can run out of space pretty easy trying to get all your cue-bids in starting at 3♠ and still being able to stop in 4M if correct.

[kenberg]

1H-2C-2D-2H-3C


To my mind, 2H shows three hearts and 3C shows a club fit. We are going to be playing in hearts so I suppose 3C could be a two card holding such as Kx, but really I would expect three. Cue bids are for controls, important enough, but first we see if the hands are fitting well enough so that we might have a source of twelve tricks.

Now there could be issues if 2H shows three hearts, but I think that they are solvable. Suppose responder is, for example, 3=2=3=5, With decent spades, no problem, s/he rebids 2NT. But maybe they are three spots. OK. Bid 2S. Of course we don't need a FSF bid to force to game, but it is still useful to use the fourth suit as a "well, this is the best I can do" waiting bid. In theory, opener could be 4=5=4=0 with a minimum if, as I think, 1H-2C-2S promises extras, but as long as s/he doesn't get excited and jump to 4S you should be fine. 1H-2C-2D-2S-3S-3NT should be fine, or at least it is probably about as good as you can do. These hands are not fitting well and there is nothing any system can do about that. And, of course, opener usually doesn't have four spades on this auction. When s/he holds Kx(x) s/he will bid 2NT over 2S. The hands still are not fitting well, but there also is still nothing to be done about that.

[fromageGB]

steve2005, on 2016-March-25, 22:32, said:

You can run out of space pretty easy trying to get all your cue-bids in starting at 3♠ and still being able to stop in 4M if correct.

It depends on how you cue bid. I agree with Helene/Wank that 3♣ is a shape bid, while cue bids start at 3♠.
(Actually, I play 3♠ as a "non-serious 3NT" and slam-investigating cue bids start with 3NT for spades, but no matter.) If you play cues to show whether a suit is unguarded or not, then you need only one level of bidding. If you play cue bids to show aces/first round controls, then kings/second round controls, you need more than one level, but if you do this, do you need bids > 4♥ for ace asking? Isn't ace asking redundant?

[gordontd]

Isn't the South hand a 3H rebid in 2/1?

[kenberg]

gordontd, on 2016-March-26, 08:09, said:

Isn't the South hand a 3H rebid in 2/1?

I don't think so, not for me.
I guess the problem here is how to get to 6C instead of 6H, which seems tough to me. The former makes as long as clubs are no worse than 4-1, the latter doesn't on much of any shape (assuming a D lead). I suppose it could be argued that 3H would help but I am not so sure. For one thing, although 1H-2D is often played as guaranteeing five cards, 1H-2C usually doesn't show five. It seems to me that if anyone is going to work out that the slam, if they are to bid a slam, has to be played in clubs that person has to be the responder.

I guess this makes 6C even if opener holds only AJ of clubs and xx in spades, assuming clubs ar no worse than 4-2, but no doubt it is easier to bid if responder can trust opener to have a decent three card holding.

Honestly I am not sure that I and a partner would manage here, so it is an interesting hand.

[gordontd]

kenberg, on 2016-March-26, 08:38, said:

I don't think so, not for me.

What do you think 3H shows, Ken?

[wank]

i don't see why you'd want to jump to 3h. you should be able to show your values later through a serious/non-serious thing.

[kenberg]

gordontd, on 2016-March-26, 10:39, said:

What do you think 3H shows, Ken?

I'll have to think about it. Not a very satisfactory answer I know. As a first try, it seems after 3H, hearts are trump. Of course I earlier said that after 2H, hearts are trump. But maybe I should amend it to: After 2H, hearts are presumed to be trump but we might still want to consider clubs.

As I sometimes play 2/1, that 2C could be on not much of a suit. This is because we play 2D as showing five cards, and so if I have only four diamonds I may have to bid 2C on not much of a suit.

So, thinking as I type, responder looks at his clubs and his hearts when opener starts with 1H. He envisions that there might be 12 tricks, For control he is not worried about spades, but he is about diamonds. Of course opener needs the Ace of diamonds for a club slam to be good, but given that, he can, if pard has decent clubs. envision ten tricks in hearts and clubs, one in diamonds, and a slow trick in spades. So he sets out to find out.

With this fantasy as a given, he starts 1H-2C-2D-2H, hoping against hope that pard may bid 3C showing clubs. If, instead, it starts 1H-2C-2D-3H then he won't take 4C as showing three clubs.


I am more than willing to hear other views on this. I may ship this hand to a couple of pards, one a 2/1 the other more SAYCish, and ask them how they think the auction should go.

I suppose, after 1H-2C-2D-2H-3C, that 4S could be keycard for clubs but I have this agreement with no one. Although we need the right four keys.

[gordontd]

wank, on 2016-March-26, 11:09, said:

i don't see why you'd want to jump to 3h. you should be able to show your values later through a serious/non-serious thing.

You don't think you should ascribe any meaning to 3H?

[jallerton]

It's clearly a matter of agreement, but if your partnership style allows Responder to make a 2/1 on some hands with 4-card support, then that is what a jump to 3♥ ought to show. If the initial response denied 4-card support then a jump to 3M ought to be a good 3-card holding with a fairly specific range (though this is only useful if you have discussed with partner what range this is!).

[SteveMoe]

gordontd, on 2016-March-26, 10:39, said:

What do you think 3H shows, Ken?

1♥-2♣
2♦-3♥
sets trumps and requests control bidding toward slam.

[wank]

gordontd, on 2016-March-26, 11:42, said:

You don't think you should ascribe any meaning to 3H?

2425 no controls in the pointed suits, at least 3 key cards in clubs and hearts, a.k.a. a picture bid. then 6 ace blackwood over that.

[kenberg]

Going back to the original hand for a moment.

First, I am right that we want to be in 6C and not in 6H? I haven't missed anything?

Assume(?), as I think, that 1H-2C-2D-2H-3C, all natural, pretty much settles the shape issues of the opening heart hand. Now we want to be in 6C if opener has the heart K and the right two aces. Let's stipulate we have to hope for the best with the club J.

How now? Methods of your choice.

I am thinking that if we play 6 key card asks, the club hand uses it, finds three, and just trusts to luck that the three keys in the heart hand do not include the stiff spade ace. Is that right? Seems like a good bet, especially since even if that bet fails there are back up bets, such as a possible AQ of diamonds and a working finesses, or even an AK of diamonds. That is, we need some luck but not a narrowly defined lucky holding. We are more asking for the absence of bad luck rather than the presence of good luck.

But there really is no way to ask about exactly which of the 6 keys is there? And we do just have to hope the club Jack is not a badly placed mortal enemy. The heart hand can see the club Jack, but he knows too little abut the rest of the hand to be making the final decision.

It seems to me that just getting to the point that the club slam is the one to look for is tough enough for many of us. After that there is still work to do and it is not clear to me just how it goes. With limited tools, I probably blast my way to it. Win some, lose some.

[gszes]

FWIW 3c simply a way of showing a singleton spade and 3s showing a void. The 3c bid does not have to promise club support since we already have a heart fit. If slam seems like a good idea opener can belatedly show club support if there seems to be a chance clubs will play better than hearts.
The difference btn a singleton and a void can be huge so why not take advantage of the space below 3n to start looking for slam. void QJxxxxx AKQJ xx might be a useful hand for this type of treatment.

[Zelandakh]

SteveMoe, on 2016-March-26, 19:07, said:

1♥-2♣
2♦-3♥
sets trumps and requests control bidding toward slam.

Gordon asked about South rebidding 3♥, not North. South is the Opener.

[wank]

I suspect you're wrong. The diagram is odd.