[jjbrr]

ldrews, on 2017-November-09, 11:56, said:

Actually, Trump has kept, or tried to keep, more of his promises than the average politician/President. The ones that he hasn't kept seem to require the cooperation of Congress, and they can't seem to get their act together.

Can you enumerate the promises that Trump has not kept that he has the power and authority to do so?

Sure, I look forward to hearing your excuse for this one.

[ldrews]

jjbrr, on 2017-November-29, 14:38, said:

Sure, I look forward to hearing your excuse for this one.

Sorry, but that link is behind a paywall. Do you have another link that does not require a subscription?

[jjbrr]

Quote

At the Carrier plant on the west side of Indianapolis, we’re coming up on a bitter anniversary. One year ago this week, President-elect Donald Trump stood before hundreds of cheering workers and declared that he had saved our jobs from moving to Mexico. It was a symbolic moment that cemented Trump’s campaign image as a working-class champion — a blue-collar billionaire who would stand with workers, not CEOs.

I have been a worker at the Rexnord plant in Indianapolis for 48 years, and president of United Steel Workers Local 1999 for more than 30. As the leader of the union representing the Carrier workers, I was part of the negotiations with the company regarding the coming layoffs when Trump intervened. Standing in front of the president-elect at Carrier during Trump’s first victory rally after the 2016 election, I realized that he was delivering a powerful message of hope not only to Carrier workers, but also to all working people in America: You finally have a president who will fight for the interests of ordinary workers, Trump seemed to say.

A year later, we feel betrayed. Carrier has announced that more than 600 workers are being laid off, with the last line scheduled to work their final shift right after the holidays.

The workers at Carrier aren’t the only ones who feel victimized by Trump’s false promises. United Technologies, Carrier’s parent company, is laying off another 700 workers right up the road from the Carrier plant in Huntington. And Rexnord, another plant in Indianapolis, just closed its doors, too. Workers at both plants hoped that Trump would come to the rescue, but he never showed up.

Beyond Indiana, workers across the country feel like they too are victims of a false Trumpian bargain, in which they were invited to trade their votes to keep their jobs. In fact, according to new research conducted by Good Jobs Nation, more than 91,000 jobs have been sent overseas since Trump was elected, the highest rate of jobs lost to outsourcing in five years.

This summer, I traveled across the Midwest, from Indianapolis to Kalamazoo to Racine, to talk with hundreds of manufacturing workers who lost their jobs to foreign countries. Many of them (some wearing “Make America Great Again” hats) agreed that Trump hasn’t lived up to his end of the deal.

“I don’t think he’s really going to come through, even though I hoped he would,” one laid-off worker told me.

“He pulled a bait-and-switch on us,” another said.

Workers know that Trump has the power to stop offshoring. His victory lap in Indianapolis said as much. As president of the United States, he can tell federal contractors like United Technologies that our tax dollars will not fund corporations that continue to offshore jobs. But Trump has failed to take action. In fact, the new report by Good Jobs Nation shows that the pace of offshoring by major federal contractors is accelerating under Trump. Since Trump moved into the White House, corporations that offshore American jobs have received $21 billion in lucrative federal contracts, meaning that the federal government is rewarding companies that send jobs overseas. The truth is that even though Trump has signed more than 100 executive orders since he took office, he has yet to sign a single one to stop offshoring by federal contractors.

Last year, after Trump announced his Carrier “victory,” I decided that I had to speak out. I said that “Trump was lying his a‑‑ off” about saving all the Carrier jobs: We had met with Carrier hours before Trump’s speech, and they gave us the job numbers they expected to preserve, but when Trump got on stage, he gave wildly inflated numbers. Trump took to Twitter to attack me, claiming that I’m terrible at my job and that the loss of jobs in Indiana is my fault. But I stand by my words: A year after his election, Trump continues to lie about his commitment to saving jobs at Carrier or anywhere else. And workers are taking note.

By Chuck Jones November 29 at 6:00 AM
Chuck Jones is president of United Steelworkers 1999.

[ldrews]

jjbrr, on 2017-November-29, 16:18, said:

By Chuck Jones November 29 at 6:00 AM
Chuck Jones is president of United Steelworkers 1999.

You are right. Trump has not saved those 700 jobs at Carrier. Unfortunately for those laid off workers, Trump is not an Emperor or Dictator. He can only jawbone the companies and issue executive orders that might make a difference at the margins. Almost anything else requires the cooperation of Congress, and there hasn't been much effectiveness in that area.

However in the economy in general unemployment is at the lowest in many years, employment participation is up, consumer and worker/business confidence is at high levels. GDP growth for the last 2 quarters has been 3+%, something not seen in years.

So yes, Trump has failed to keep a specific promise to the workers of a specific company. Given the reality of the workings of government and the limitations of the power of the Presidency, do you have any suggestions on what he might have done to keep that promise?

[jjbrr]

ldrews, on 2017-November-29, 18:08, said:

So yes, Trump has failed to keep a specific promise to the workers of a specific company. Given the reality of the workings of government and the limitations of the power of the Presidency, do you have any suggestions on what he might have done to keep that promise?

Yes, one possible recommendation is even in the article itself. He could stop giving contracts to the companies that don't deserve them, either through his own initiatives or by appointing people who share his same opinions. I do appreciate your hand-waving, thanks.

[kenberg]

ldrews, on 2017-November-29, 18:08, said:

You are right. Trump has not saved those 700 jobs at Carrier. Unfortunately for those laid off workers, Trump is not an Emperor or Dictator. He can only jawbone the companies and issue executive orders that might make a difference at the margins. Almost anything else requires the cooperation of Congress, and there hasn't been much effectiveness in that area.

However in the economy in general unemployment is at the lowest in many years, employment participation is up, consumer and worker/business confidence is at high levels. GDP growth for the last 2 quarters has been 3+%, something not seen in years.

So yes, Trump has failed to keep a specific promise to the workers of a specific company. Given the reality of the workings of government and the limitations of the power of the Presidency, do you have any suggestions on what he might have done to keep that promise?

I would not hold Trump responsible for any specific closing. I also do not give him credit for the rising market or the falling unemployment. I'm fairly consistent in these matters. The economy did well during the Clinton years. Good for him, good for us, but I imagine the collapse of the Soviet Union helped matters along. And the housing market was rising in 2007. And the stock market was doing well in 1928. I think we have to wait a bit.

I read Oedipus Rex in college, many years back but I sort of remembered the closing lines, but only roughly, so I looked them up:
http://classics.mit..../oedipus.pl.txt
Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great, He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state. Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes? Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies! Therefore wait to see life's ending ere thou count one mortal blest; Wait till free from pain and sorrow he has gained his final rest.



We will see how it all goes over time. Since I live here I wish us well, but I really find the guy revolting. I know, I said that before. I have not changed my mind.

[PassedOut]

ldrews, on 2017-November-29, 18:08, said:

Given the reality of the workings of government and the limitations of the power of the Presidency, do you have any suggestions on what he might have done?

From the article:

Quote

Workers know that Trump has the power to stop offshoring. His victory lap in Indianapolis said as much. As president of the United States, he can tell federal contractors like United Technologies that our tax dollars will not fund corporations that continue to offshore jobs. But Trump has failed to take action. In fact, the new report by Good Jobs Nation shows that the pace of offshoring by major federal contractors is accelerating under Trump. Since Trump moved into the White House, corporations that offshore American jobs have received $21 billion in lucrative federal contracts, meaning that the federal government is rewarding companies that send jobs overseas. The truth is that even though Trump has signed more than 100 executive orders since he took office, he has yet to sign a single one to stop offshoring by federal contractors.

Why do you believe that this is the right approach?

[ldrews]

PassedOut, on 2017-November-29, 21:17, said:

From the article:


Why do you believe that this is the right approach?

Does everyone else here think that Trump has the power and authority to grant and withhold contracts from companies based on his specific beliefs and views? Or the supplications of the public? Bypassing laws and regulations? If that were so Trump could simply transform society by issuing edicts, executive orders, or getting on the phone with the CEO of a company and telling them they are out of business.

You people really do want a dictator, don't you. Be careful of what you wish for.

[ldrews]

jjbrr, on 2017-November-29, 16:18, said:

By Chuck Jones November 29 at 6:00 AM
Chuck Jones is president of United Steelworkers 1999.

I thought I remembered this:

http://money.cnn.com...deal/index.html

So Trump did take action regarding jobs at Carrier.

Do you think that because Trump took the initial action to save jobs at Carrier that he has then assumed a life-long obligation to continue doing so?

[Al_U_Card]

Something to do with the law of unintended consequences... like everything else that involves more than one person or one thing in isolation (cane toads etc.) we just can't stop ourselves from thinking that the next fix will be the last.

[ldrews]

jjbrr, on 2017-November-29, 14:38, said:

Sure, I look forward to hearing your excuse for this one.

Here is a somewhat independent view of Trump keeping his promisess: https://www.cnbc.com...y-promises.html

[jjbrr]

I have to ask; you read that article and your opinion is that Trump is doing a good job?

[jjbrr]

ldrews, on 2017-November-29, 22:40, said:

I thought I remembered this:

http://money.cnn.com...deal/index.html

So Trump did take action regarding jobs at Carrier.

Do you think that because Trump took the initial action to save jobs at Carrier that he has then assumed a life-long obligation to continue doing so?

No, he didn't.

[barmar]

ldrews, on 2017-November-29, 22:28, said:

You people really do want a dictator, don't you. Be careful of what you wish for.

No, we don't.

But he got elected because of all these campaign promises that only a dictator could really keep. And you're the one who keeps saying that he's doing a good job of keeping his promises. But then when we point out all the promises he's not keeping, you excuse him because they aren't really something the President can do. So what's the point of making promises he has no power to keep?

[ldrews]

barmar, on 2017-November-30, 05:50, said:

No, we don't.

But he got elected because of all these campaign promises that only a dictator could really keep. And you're the one who keeps saying that he's doing a good job of keeping his promises. But then when we point out all the promises he's not keeping, you excuse him because they aren't really something the President can do. So what's the point of making promises he has no power to keep?

Isn't that the important question to ask of all individuals running for public office?

[Zelandakh]

Theresa May condemns Trump's retweets of UK far-right leader’s anti-Muslim videos
Donald Trump retweets far-right group's anti-Muslim videos
Donald Trump attacks Theresa May over her criticism of his far-right retweets

Standard move from the Trump play book. If bad news then:-

1. Counterattack - attack the media source as fake news and put out a false narrative that will be picked up on simple internet searches and promoted by conservative websites;
2. Go SIlent - wait for the news cycle to wind itself down and move to the next story;
3. Create News - if the annoying story will not go away, do something so appalling that the media have to switch to that, thus forcing a change in the media narrative.

I honestly never thought I would see the day when an American president went out of their way to promote sectarianist hatred. The group he has essentially supported is structured along the same lines as Ulster loyalist terrorists, with a political wing and an associated paramilitary wing, and its leaders are currently facing charges for "causing religiously aggravated harassment". The American people must surely be very proud.

[kenberg]

Zelandakh, on 2017-November-30, 07:35, said:

Theresa May condemns Trump's retweets of UK far-right leader's anti-Muslim videos
Donald Trump retweets far-right group's anti-Muslim videos
Donald Trump attacks Theresa May over her criticism of his far-right retweets

Standard move from the Trump play book. If bad news then:-

1. Counterattack - attack the media source as fake news and put out a false narrative that will be picked up on simple internet searches and promoted by conservative websites;
2. Go SIlent - wait for the news cycle to wind itself down and move to the next story;
3. Create News - if the annoying story will not go away, do something so appalling that the media have to switch to that, thus forcing a change in the media narrative.

I honestly never thought I would see the day when an American president went out of their way to promote sectarianist hatred. The group he has essentially supported is structured along the same lines as Ulster loyalist terrorists, with a political wing and an associated paramilitary wing, and its leaders are currently facing charges for "causing religiously aggravated harassment". The American people must surely be very proud.

I no longer understand the world that I live in. At the simplest level, a child on crutches is being beaten and the response is to film the event rather than to attempt to help the child? And the big concern is whether the attacker was or was not an immigrant? Should we all give our views on whether we should only beat up children who are not on crutches, whether only immigrants are forbidden to beat up children on crutches? Watch it all on YouTube.

But why on Earth is our president getting into this? From WaPo "White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders defended Trump’s post as evidence he wants to 'promote strong borders and strong national security.' " I hope Ms. Sanders can find a job that does not require her to say such things. Whatever Dwight Eisenhower thought about the importance of a strong marriage he did not repeat stories from The National Enquirer concerning what Eddie Fisher was or was not doing with Elizabeth Taylor while he was still married to Debby Reynolds. Fundamentally, whether the stories are exaggerated, false, or true is not really the point. The president of the United States is encouraging stories that might well not make it past an editor of a scandal sheet.

This is not good.

[rmnka447]

Winstonm, on 2017-November-28, 15:02, said:

Quite amazing.

I made an initial post from New Testament verses that showed that the Christian Bible considered women subservient to men, and I noted that evangelical Christians accept those words as the word of God. Richard then made a wry post that was quite clever showing that this thinking is fundamental to others besides the religious.


You have taken this off-road into a who-did-who-to-what that is not related to the subject. Were we too subtle for you?

Gee, I missed Charlie rose the other day and now Matt Lauer pops out of the woodwork.

No, Winnie, but your lens is betraying you.

If you want to equate some Bible passages as justification for mistreating women, that's an overreach.

I was pointing out that there are more than a few "right" thinking people about women in your view who have perpetrated equally or more reprehensible harassment or abuse against women. So what's their excuse? If they are supposed to be so cognizant of women's rights why are they doing these things?

If I were taking your tack, I might say that they lack any basis for their morality, but being "good" people they feel entitled. Sad.

I was also pointing out the hypocrisy of progressives for giving these creeps a pass because they hold the "right" political views.

But, of course, there's a different standard for "entitled" progressives, not for conservatives.

Gurgle, gurgle the swamp is churning

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2017-November-30, 09:19, said:

I no longer understand the world that I live in. At the simplest level, a child on crutches is being beaten and the response is to film the event rather than to attempt to help the child? And the big concern is whether the attacker was or was not an immigrant? Should we all give our views on whether we should only beat up children who are not on crutches, whether only immigrants are forbidden to beat up children on crutches? Watch it all on YouTube.

But why on Earth is our president getting into this? From WaPo "White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders defended Trump’s post as evidence he wants to 'promote strong borders and strong national security.' " I hope Ms. Sanders can find a job that does not require her to say such things. Whatever Dwight Eisenhower thought about the importance of a strong marriage he did not repeat stories from The National Enquirer concerning what Eddie Fisher was or was not doing with Elizabeth Taylor while he was still married to Debby Reynolds. Fundamentally, whether the stories are exaggerated, false, or true is not really the point. The president of the United States is encouraging stories that might well not make it past an editor of a scandal sheet.

This is not good.

As much as I admire your levelheadedness, I think your conclusion (that it is not good) is part of our problem. We are way through that particular looking glass. What is at stake is our form of democracy. The very institutions that safeguard our freedoms - a free press and fact-based truth are both under constant assault by the president and his support propaganda machine.

At the same time, I do think you are correct that the solution must lie in reaching out to the other side - regardless of political right or left - to come together to repudiate this attempt to destroy our culture and democracy.

It appears now that the 2018 elections will be a tidal wave of opposition to this agenda. But our problems are much deeper than which side wins in an election year. Our problems stem from an erosion of factual-based reasoning, of a reliance on the faith and feelings rather than our own mental capacities to tell us how to act, think, and believe.

No less an expert than Joseph Stiglitz just this morning wrote that this current re-emergence of trickle down economics means that it is either believed as a religious-like conviction or it is the hypocrisy of the complete abandonment of principles. I have long claimed it is the former.

This is the fight - against ideologies based on faith and feelings. It is difficult to reason with the angry, the tired, the underfed, and the scared. It behooves us to find middle ground - the high moral ground - in time to save ourselves.

[Winstonm]

rmnka447, on 2017-November-30, 11:10, said:

Gee, I missed Charlie rose the other day and now Matt Lauer pops out of the woodwork.

No, Winnie, but your lens is betraying you.

If you want to equate some Bible passages as justification for mistreating women, that's an overreach.

I was pointing out that there are more than a few "right" thinking people about women in your view who have perpetrated equally or more reprehensible harassment or abuse against women. So what's their excuse? If they are supposed to be so cognizant of women's rights why are they doing these things?

If I were taking your tack, I might say that they lack any basis for their morality, but being "good" people they feel entitled. Sad.

I was also pointing out the hypocrisy of progressives for giving these creeps a pass because they hold the "right" political views.

But, of course, there's a different standard for "entitled" progressives, not for conservatives.

Gurgle, gurgle the swamp is churning

It is truly disheartening that someone smart enough to learn bridge can be so distracted and easily swayed by right wing propaganda. I would think you would have enough self pride to think for yourself and examine facts.

Regardless, your boy is going down. Tick, tock, tick, tock....