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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21601 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 05:03

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-15, 17:35, said:

How do you guys feel about Trump's VP choice?


I have no comment about US politics at all, but I do get sick of incessant childhood sob stories used by politicans of all colours
I was brought up on the Four Yorkshiremen and have always avoided entering politics knowing I could never sob enough to connect
It does seem de rigeur these days. Not what you are going to do for people, but starting off with a sob story
We all have them but do they connect?? No comment on the US at all
And purely as a disinterested observer I am impressed that you can dis Donald Trump and then become his running mate
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#21602 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 07:09

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-15, 17:35, said:

How do you guys feel about Trump's VP choice?


A very good question. First I acknowledge my ignorance. I had forgotten that Vance was the author of Hillbilly Elegy. When it came out I thought I might read it but I never got around to it and did not connect Senator Vance as being the author until now.

It is impossible to imagine a Vance-like person as the VP choice of any previous Republican presidential nominee. Bush and Vance? Reagan and Vance? Eiisenhower and Vance. No. The Repulican Party has little resemblance to what it once was. Actually the Democratic Party has changed considerably,also, but less dramatically.

I heard some thinking that the R's would seek votes from suburban women. I guess not just yet.

I try not to whine, I live comfortably, no complaints, but I am one among I think a great many who say these are my choices?

Maybe I'll put it like this: I really think Trump's only interest is Trump. I would oppose Trump if he came up with a platform that well matched my views, I simply think he is an awful person. With Vance, I disagree. For example I think it is very important to support Ukrane both on general prinnciples and because I thinnk it is in our own best interests to do so. We do not want a break with Europe. But I am at least willing to consider it possible that Vance's views are based on what he thinks is best for the country. I disagree with his views, I strongly disagree, but that happens. Trump? I would not trust him with my wallet or my daugter and definitely not with my country.
Ken
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#21603 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 15:04

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-15, 17:35, said:

How do you guys feel about Trump's VP choice?


I am guessing, or maybe hoping, you lean toward the R side. We could use some good discussion. Here we mostly think alike, or enough alike that posting gets pointless.

Many of us worry about the side-effects of drugs. I'm 85 and I recently had my fourth of six planned chemo infusions to combat cancer. Believe me there are side effects. But there are also good reasons for doing it. Marjorie Taylor Greene and RFK Jr are off in space on vaccines and DT seems happy to accompany them

Everyone wants honest elections, and there are challenges. My first vote was for Kennedy in 1960 and I recall there was at least some reason to believe that a lot of dead people in Chicago voted for him But maybe this was balanced by some Nixon shenanigans in southern Illinois. My understanding now is that non-partisan experts regard our current situation as being the best it has ever been. Challenges have been examined and the results hold up. DT telling people that they must find him more votes somewhere is not what I hope for from a would-be leader.

I am not all that happy with everything Biden does. Student loan forgiveness is an example. First we acknowledge that a loan and a scholarship are different things. Repayment is expected for one, not for the other. And then we have to state the obvious: If the student loan program has people some trillion plus dollars in debt often with no realistic hope of repayment, this is a seriously effed up program. Exactly what to do is far from clear, to me or to anyone, but starting with a couple of obvious truths would be useful

I grew up in an environment that I would describe as strongly practical. My (adoptive) father came to this country at age 10 with his 16 year old brother. He fnished eighth grad and went to work. I once asked about his childhood, he responded "My childhood was Hell: and refused to discuss it further. But thanks to his practical approach I was raised in a safe neighborhood and went on to college.

Something has gone very wrong, I hope we find our way through this. I am willing to listen to conservatives, not so willing to listen to people, I woould not call them conservatives, who think vaccines are a plot to turn us all into zombies.

I apologize if this is too personal.
Ken
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#21604 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 16:48

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-15, 17:35, said:

How do you guys feel about Trump's VP choice?


He said that on Labour's election victory, the UK was now the only Islamic state with nuclear bombs, that makes him even more deluded than Trump.
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#21605 User is offline   Al Phalpha 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 17:47

View Postkenberg, on 2024-July-16, 15:04, said:

I am guessing, or maybe hoping, you lean toward the R side. We could use some good discussion. Here we mostly think alike, or enough alike that posting gets pointless.

Many of us worry about the side-effects of drugs. I'm 85 and I recently had my fourth of six planned chemo infusions to combat cancer. Believe me there are side effects. But there are also good reasons for doing it. Marjorie Taylor Greene and RFK Jr are off in space on vaccines and DT seems happy to accompany them

Everyone wants honest elections, and there are challenges. My first vote was for Kennedy in 1960 and I recall there was at least some reason to believe that a lot of dead people in Chicago voted for him But maybe this was balanced by some Nixon shenanigans in southern Illinois. My understanding now is that non-partisan experts regard our current situation as being the best it has ever been. Challenges have been examined and the results hold up. DT telling people that they must find him more votes somewhere is not what I hope for from a would-be leader.

I am not all that happy with everything Biden does. Student loan forgiveness is an example. First we acknowledge that a loan and a scholarship are different things. Repayment is expected for one, not for the other. And then we have to state the obvious: If the student loan program has people some trillion plus dollars in debt often with no realistic hope of repayment, this is a seriously effed up program. Exactly what to do is far from clear, to me or to anyone, but starting with a couple of obvious truths would be useful

I grew up in an environment that I would describe as strongly practical. My (adoptive) father came to this country at age 10 with his 16 year old brother. He fnished eighth grad and went to work. I once asked about his childhood, he responded "My childhood was Hell: and refused to discuss it further. But thanks to his practical approach I was raised in a safe neighborhood and went on to college.

Something has gone very wrong, I hope we find our way through this. I am willing to listen to conservatives, not so willing to listen to people, I woould not call them conservatives, who think vaccines are a plot to turn us all into zombies.

I apologize if this is too personal.

No apology necessary. I'm sorry to hear of your cancer diagnosis. I wish you a complete recovery and a few more years of wisdom expressed. I agree with you completely that "Something has gone very wrong." I hope both of us can live long enough to see things turned around to some degree of sanity. And, just for the record, I think MTG (and AOC) should hitch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet.
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#21606 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2024-July-16, 18:20

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-16, 17:47, said:

And, just for the record, I think MTG (and AOC) should hitch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet.

Just another case of false equivalence.

In US politics, while everybody is graded on a curve, the QOP is graded on a much lower curve than Democrats. MTG and others like Boebert are an entirely different level of out of the mainstream than any of the Democrats.
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#21607 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 09:04

We were asked for thoughts about Vance. I never wrote a memoir, I did not grow up a hillbilly, he is very different from me, but still. He joined the military, then went to Ohio State. I considered joining the military after HS. In 1956 we all assumed guys would spend a couple of years in the military, but I decided to take a student deferment and go to the University of Minnesota. Tuition was low ($72 a quarter) so I figured I could afford it if I lived at home. I imagine that Vance, like me, had to make his choices and figure how he would pay for them. Miraculously, I got a scholarship. I made the right choice for me, Vance made the right choice for Vance.

One of the many things that I think are screwed up these days is all this effort to send kids of modest backgrounds to Harvard. I went to the U of M. I belonged at the U of M. Not at Harvard. No kid in my high school class belonged at Harvard. My friend Fred took shop math instead of algebra and became a plumber. Made a good living at it I think. Most of my friends from my HS did not go to college but I had friends from other schools who did and being with them in the early years of college was useful.

Sending youngsters like I was off to elite schools seems like an error to me. Yes, they can put Yale on their resumes, and Yale gets to congratulate itself on how it is open to everyone, but how is it really working? Well, there is a lot of student debt. Yeah, some succeed and pay it off, but we have a problem.

Yesterday I was at a doctor's office (new hearing aids) and I got to chatting with the receptionist. Her daughter is in community college, living at home, and planning on going on to the university when she finishes cc. She is doing well, will probably do well at the U and then get a job. Her student debt should be manageable. Her mother was pleased, she said "I don't see why she needs to go to some fancy school that we can't afford". I heartily agreed.

Vance and I see things differently but we might agree that right now there are people who set up programs aimed to help but these people doing the setting up have problems with realistic thinking.
Ken
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#21608 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted Yesterday, 11:36

My personal experience leads me to agree with Ken.

I grew up in small-town Wisconsin, attending 6 schools before college, including 3 high schools. I always had a knack for scoring high on tests like IQ, merit scholar, college aptitude, and so on, so I found myself recruited by colleges looking for students with my background. I chose Princeton with a full scholarship plus the promise of jobs around the campus to earn spending money. Those jobs included working in the student cafeteria, selling refreshments at sporting events, and singing in the chapel choir, so I didn't accrue any debt.

However, my earnings weren't enough to pay for many of the social events that most of my classmates enjoyed. And in those days, Princeton students were all male, and over half had attended all-male prep schools--including my three roommates, who had all attended the same prep school. One of them became my good friend, but the difference in our experiences--particularly with girls--made bonding difficult. One particular incident raised a lot of anger in me: One of my roommates opened my desk in my absence, found a letter from my girlfriend (who attended a state college in Wisconsin), and read the letter aloud to the others.

On the plus side, the academics were great, and I decided to major in math. And I made some good friends in chess club and music.

But I was always tired, and I never really fit in, so I withdrew from Princeton, worked for a year in Minneapolis/St. Paul (Ken's old stomping ground), and then enrolled as a sophomore at the University of Wisconsin in Madison.

Now I can't say that anyone else sent me to Princeton. On the contrary, all of the gentle advice I got from relatives and friends suggested that I consider attending a state school instead. And I certainly knew that Princeton students were all male, but I underestimated how much that warped the school's culture. It was my decision alone to go, and I don't really regret it--I learned a lot in many areas of life!

Nevertheless, I certainly don't think anyone should be sent to an elite school, accruing a lot of debt as a result. And I now give out the same advice that I didn't heed when I chose my first college.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists that is why they invented hell. Bertrand Russell
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#21609 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 13:53

View PostPassedOut, on 2024-July-17, 11:36, said:

My personal experience leads me to agree with Ken.

I grew up in small-town Wisconsin, attending 6 schools before college, including 3 high schools. I always had a knack for scoring high on tests like IQ, merit scholar, college aptitude, and so on, so I found myself recruited by colleges looking for students with my background. I chose Princeton with a full scholarship plus the promise of jobs around the campus to earn spending money. Those jobs included working in the student cafeteria, selling refreshments at sporting events, and singing in the chapel choir, so I didn't accrue any debt.

However, my earnings weren't enough to pay for many of the social events that most of my classmates enjoyed. And in those days, Princeton students were all male, and over half had attended all-male prep schools--including my three roommates, who had all attended the same prep school. One of them became my good friend, but the difference in our experiences--particularly with girls--made bonding difficult. One particular incident raised a lot of anger in me: One of my roommates opened my desk in my absence, found a letter from my girlfriend (who attended a state college in Wisconsin), and read the letter aloud to the others.

On the plus side, the academics were great, and I decided to major in math. And I made some good friends in chess club and music.

But I was always tired, and I never really fit in, so I withdrew from Princeton, worked for a year in Minneapolis/St. Paul (Ken's old stomping ground), and then enrolled as a sophomore at the University of Wisconsin in Madison.

Now I can't say that anyone else sent me to Princeton. On the contrary, all of the gentle advice I got from relatives and friends suggested that I consider attending a state school instead. And I certainly knew that Princeton students were all male, but I underestimated how much that warped the school's culture. It was my decision alone to go, and I don't really regret it--I learned a lot in many areas of life!

Nevertheless, I certainly don't think anyone should be sent to an elite school, accruing a lot of debt as a result. And I now give out the same advice that I didn't heed when I chose my first college.



Your Princeton experience is a dramatic example of what I am saying. My birthday is in January so I started college when I was 17. No longer a kid, but not an adult either. I was buying my own clothes and I had bought my own car when I was 15, but I was living at home and, if I had decided to join the Navy, which I seriously considered, I would have needed a signature from my parents. There was a pizza place that would serve me beer when I ordered pizza, but of course they were not supposed to. You mention girls. Yeah. Marriage? No no no! was living at home so I could afford college, marriage was not on the table. But also I was no longer 14, when a date consisted of me going to a girl's house, the two of us walking to a movie, then I would bring her home, kiss her goodnight at the door, and see her next week. And so, at 17? Bob Seger, in Night Moves, says "Working on mysteries without any clues". A good description.

As to academics, the U of M was very good. I learned Fourier Analysis, Tensors, Electromagnetic Fields, Relativity etc. For the humanities I read Oedipus Rex, Dante's Inferno. Goethe's Faust and, again, etc etc. That's a pretty good sylabus for a guy who, at a younger age, was asked by friends if he would like to go to a Monet exhibit and replied "Who is Monet?"


Sometimes well-intentioned planners forget what it ws like to be young. I think that was very much the case with a lot of education choices during covid.


Ken
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#21610 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 14:03

And now for something completely different, except I have said it before. I see Adam Schiff says Biden should drop out. Too late, guys. The situation at the debate was obvious, the Dems had 48 hours or sso to decide how to do this, the time has passed. Get with Biden. A bad situation? Yep. But time has moved on.
Ken
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#21611 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted Yesterday, 14:31

View Postkenberg, on 2024-July-17, 14:03, said:

And now for something completely different, except I have said it before. I see Adam Schiff says Biden should drop out. Too late, guys. The situation at the debate was obvious, the Dems had 48 hours or sso to decide how to do this, the time has passed. Get with Biden. A bad situation? Yep. But time has moved on.

Schiff is one of the shrewdest, savviest political player. He would never waste his political capital like this unless he is "101%" certain of succeeding.

The downside impact for any politician is very steep. But only if the politician fails. Schiff is not stupid --- Biden is toast.
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#21612 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 15:51

View Postshyams, on 2024-July-17, 14:31, said:

Schiff is one of the shrewdest, savviest political player. He would never waste his political capital like this unless he is "101%" certain of succeeding.

The downside impact for any politician is very steep. But only if the politician fails. Schiff is not stupid --- Biden is toast.


I hope you are right, that his thoughts will work, since yes, I fear Biden is toast. But there will be people saying "Where have you been/ You did not watch the debate?" A Biden win would almost certainly mean a Harris takeover sometime, maybe sometime pretty soon.

Here is a question someone could ask Schiff: "Preusmably the biggest problem facing Biden is that many people think he is experiencing mental decline that makes him unsuitable for the presidency. Do you believe that Joe Biden is experiencing mental decline that makes him unsuitable for the presidency?".

Ok. he does not have a medical degree and cannot diagnose, but he could say "The possibility of mental decline is serious and Biden must either be able to show clearly that he is not experiencing such decline or he must withdraw since it is perfectly reasonable for voters to be reluctant to support someone who apppears to be undergooing mental decline and who refuses to take tests that possibly could clarify the matter."


I can see why he avoids saying that, but it would inject some clarity.
Ken
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#21613 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted Yesterday, 16:27

View Postkenberg, on 2024-July-17, 15:51, said:

I hope you are right, that his thoughts will work, since yes, I fear Biden is toast. But there will be people saying "Where have you been/ You did not watch the debate?" A Biden win would almost certainly mean a Harris takeover sometime, maybe sometime pretty soon.

Here is a question someone could ask Schiff: "Preusmably the biggest problem facing Biden is that many people think he is experiencing mental decline that makes him unsuitable for the presidency. Do you believe that Joe Biden is experiencing mental decline that makes him unsuitable for the presidency?".

Ok. he does not have a medical degree and cannot diagnose, but he could say "The possibility of mental decline is serious and Biden must either be able to show clearly that he is not experiencing such decline or he must withdraw since it is perfectly reasonable for voters to be reluctant to support someone who apppears to be undergooing mental decline and who refuses to take tests that possibly could clarify the matter."


The Goldwater 'rule' was introduced for a good reason.
Trump may be a jerk, but you can't make a vaccine against narcissism.


Medicalisation of the electoral process is a really bad idea.Which Doctor/s should be chosen to decide if a particular person is 'fit for office'?
Would they appear on the Hill where a joint sitting of the Senate and Congress would watch in open-mouthed silence while a couple of guys in scrubs with stethoscopes would make a solemn pronouncement about each candidates success or failure on the Montreal Cognitive Assessment scale?


No need for elections anymore; just send them to a Doctor for a ten minute exam. Highest score wins.

Medicine can do a lot of things quite well. Choosing candidates for public office isn't one of them.







Non legit hoc
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#21614 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 17:26

View Postpilowsky, on 2024-July-17, 16:27, said:

The Goldwater 'rule' was introduced for a good reason.
Trump may be a jerk, but you can't make a vaccine against narcissism.


Medicalisation of the electoral process is a really bad idea.Which Doctor/s should be chosen to decide if a particular person is 'fit for office'?
Would they appear on the Hill where a joint sitting of the Senate and Congress would watch in open-mouthed silence while a couple of guys in scrubs with stethoscopes would make a solemn pronouncement about each candidates success or failure on the Montreal Cognitive Assessment scale?

No need for elections anymore; just send them to a Doctor for a ten minute exam. Highest score wins.

Medicine can do a lot of things quite well. Choosing candidates for public office isn't one of them.






Ok, so we stick with what we have. People watch the debate, they very reasonably think there is good reason to believe Biden is having mental decline, we just let that stand since we don't want doctors involved in politics. Myself, if a candidate has, say, a heart attack during a debate, or anywhere, I would like to hear from doctors who examine hin about the seeriousness of the attack and the general cardiological health of the candidate. Same thing if he can't complete a sentence or recall what he said two sentences back. But that's me.


Oh. And doctors have just said Biden has covid. Doctors do things like that.

Well, Biden doesn't want the doctors involvedm I guess no one is saying he should, so that's that. Seems odd to me.

Well, maybe not that odd since I would place a strong bet that tests would confirn mental declline.
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#21615 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted Yesterday, 18:15

View Postkenberg, on 2024-July-17, 17:26, said:

Ok, so westick with what we have. People watch the debate, they very reasonably think there is good reason to believe Biden is having mental decline, we just let that stand since we don't want doctors involved in politics. Myself, if a candidate has, say, a heart attack during a debate, or anywhere, I would like to hear from doctors who examine hin about the seeriousness of the attack and the general cardiological health of the candidate. Same thing if he can't complete a sentence or recall what he said two sentences back. But that's me.


Oh. And doctors have just said Biden has covid. Doctors do things like that.

Well, Biden doesn't want the doctors involvedm I guess no one is saying he should, so that's that. Seems odd to me.

Well, maybe not that odd since I would place a strong bet that tests would confirn mental declline.


I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't make reasonable decisions based on the evidence in front of them, but unfortunately they don't.
Biden in a coma would still make a better POTUS than Trump at his best.
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#21616 User is offline   Al Phalpha 

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Posted Yesterday, 18:30

I, for one, am totally fed up with the "politics of personal destruction". I really don't need to hear what "the other guy" did wrong. Records speak for themselves. Just tell me what you plan to do to make things better. Once hearing that from both sides I'll make a decision for whom to cast my (lone) vote. Personalities are insignificant. Only policies will be considered.
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#21617 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 19:00

View PostAl Phalpha, on 2024-July-17, 18:30, said:

I, for one, am totally fed up with the "politics of personal destruction". I really don't need to hear what "the other guy" did wrong. Records speak for themselves. Just tell me what you plan to do to make things better. Once hearing that from both sides I'll make a decision for whom to cast my (lone) vote. Personalities are insignificant. Only policies will be considered.


Policy is important, I might even agee that it is primary, but for me character matters. Yes, I know that despite what I learned in fourth grade George Washingto really did not confess to chopping down the cherry tree, and if we want a president who has never had an adulterous relationship we are stuck with Jimmy carter forever. And yes, I know that the way to tell if a politian is lying is to watch his lips and see if they are moving. Still, I can't help it. I mentioned before that if Trump came out with a program that aligned well with what I think should be done I still wouldn't vote for him. I can't help it. I don't expect a saint, I am far from sure I would want a saint, but we do not have to worry about any saints being nominated. But at some point I just decide I am done with someone. Just done.
Ken
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#21618 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted Yesterday, 20:28

View Postpilowsky, on 2024-July-17, 18:15, said:

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't make reasonable decisions based on the evidence in front of them, but unfortunately they don't.
Biden in a coma would still make a better POTUS than Trump at his best.

ROFL.
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#21619 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted Today, 05:12

Not sure whether to be amused, appalled or both by the MAGA types who have just found out that Vance is not "one of them" because his wife is of Indian heritage and one of his kids is called Vivek.
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#21620 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted Today, 07:23

View PostCyberyeti, on 2024-July-18, 05:12, said:

Not sure whether to be amused, appalled or both by the MAGA types who have just found out that Vance is not "one of them" because his wife is of Indian heritage and one of his kids is called Vivek.


And, if I understand it correctly, she converted him to vegetarianism. I'll stick with my steak but I am impressed.
Ken
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