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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21221 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 09:40

View Postkenberg, on 2023-November-06, 08:59, said:

We have lost the ability to work with people who are not like us. This is not good.


this is a more general problem, and not just with religion (but religion's a common reason for it).

Fanatics who can't see that there are two sides to an argument in whatever context are a huge issue, even more so when they try to force their view on me.
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#21222 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 12:39

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-November-06, 09:40, said:

this is a more general problem, and not just with religion (but religion's a common reason for it).

Fanatics who can't see that there are two sides to an argument in whatever context are a huge issue, even more so when they try to force their view on me.


One feature about Trump and the US is how many lawyers are abandoning facts for faith, a group supposedly trained to argue effectively either side of a proposition.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21223 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 14:18

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-November-04, 12:06, said:

This is a posting I agree with 100%. My personal history points to religion as a causative factor. That could be wrong, I know. But any religion that begins with you must or I am the (only) way might not be in accord with those views, and most religions of which I am familiar all start off with the premise that you have to do so and so. If someone wants to prove me wrong I am open to hear them out.

I think most people who claim to be religious are not orthodox about it.

Mike Johnson said

Quote

Well, go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it — that’s my worldview.

I'll bet that he's more selective about which Bible passages he believes in than this simplistic quote suggests. The Bible recommends stoning as a punishment for many transgressions, has he ever voted for anything like this?

Like most people, he picks and chooses. He doesn't think homosexuality is right, so he'll quote the appropriate Bible versus that support this. But he's also pro-gun, and I'm sure he refers to the 2nd Amendment rather than anything in the Bible for this.

#21224 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 14:57

View Postbarmar, on 2023-November-06, 14:18, said:

I think most people who claim to be religious are not orthodox about it.

Mike Johnson said

I'll bet that he's more selective about which Bible passages he believes in than this simplistic quote suggests. The Bible recommends stoning as a punishment for many transgressions, has he ever voted for anything like this?

Like most people, he picks and chooses. He doesn't think homosexuality is right, so he'll quote the appropriate Bible versus that support this. But he's also pro-gun, and I'm sure he refers to the 2nd Amendment rather than anything in the Bible for this.




Faith, Hope and Charity, these three, but the greatest of these is Charity.
If we want to look to the Bible that's a good start.

As to guns, common sense should outvote both the Bible and the Second Amendment. Ok, I caught fish with a lure and I shot pheasants with a shotgun. Allowing guns so that a lot of people can be shot quickly is horrid. You do not need to be either a Biblical scholar or a Constitutional lawyer to understand why such weapons should not be allowed. If someone says that the Bible or the Constitution says that they should be allowed they might re-think that, starting with acknowledging that both were written long before such weapons existed. If someone says they must be allowed to own a blunderbuss I suppose we can, reluctantly, let him.
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#21225 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 17:34

View Postbarmar, on 2023-November-06, 14:18, said:

I think most people who claim to be religious are not orthodox about it.

Mike Johnson said

I'll bet that he's more selective about which Bible passages he believes in than this simplistic quote suggests. The Bible recommends stoning as a punishment for many transgressions, has he ever voted for anything like this?

Like most people, he picks and chooses. He doesn't think homosexuality is right, so he'll quote the appropriate Bible versus that support this. But he's also pro-gun, and I'm sure he refers to the 2nd Amendment rather than anything in the Bible for this.


As to orthodoxy, I wonder if you have lived with any Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, or Mormons.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21226 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 17:38

View Postkenberg, on 2023-November-06, 14:57, said:

Faith, Hope and Charity, these three, but the greatest of these is Charity.
If we want to look to the Bible that's a good start.

As to guns, common sense should outvote both the Bible and the Second Amendment. Ok, I caught fish with a lure and I shot pheasants with a shotgun. Allowing guns so that a lot of people can be shot quickly is horrid. You do not need to be either a Biblical scholar or a Constitutional lawyer to understand why such weapons should not be allowed. If someone says that the Bible or the Constitution says that they should be allowed they might re-think that, starting with acknowledging that both were written long before such weapons existed. If someone says they must be allowed to own a blunderbuss I suppose we can, reluctantly, let him.


The problem is that common sense is antithesis of a faith-based life. I think you underestimate that. From what I can tell the GOP is nothing but a faith-based religious cult and Donald Trump is their messiah.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21227 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 19:47

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-November-06, 17:38, said:

Donald Trump is their messiah.


I think he's just a naughty boy.
Non legit hoc
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#21228 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-06, 20:17

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-November-06, 19:47, said:

I think he's just a naughty boy.


I’ll furnish the tomb if he is willing to take part in a special 3-day test for messiahs.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21229 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-November-07, 09:22

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-November-06, 17:38, said:

The problem is that common sense is antithesis of a faith-based life. I think you underestimate that. From what I can tell the GOP is nothing but a faith-based religious cult and Donald Trump is their messiah.


Ok, maybe. But I start with the idea that in any large group, not everyone is the same. Some people are beyond the reach not only of logic and evidence but not everyone is. And we do not need everyone. I think some people who voted for Trump in 2016 will not be voting for him in 2024. We need to increase that number. We do not need to convert everyone, we need to reach those who might still change their minds, as others have. The first step is to allow for the possibility that such people might exist. One argument for this is that if they do not exist then we are doomed no matter what we do. If they do exist, then maybe something can still be done.

Of course this might be naive. Of course. But what else? Either there are some folks out there who are still open to discussion or there are not. If not, well, then that's that.
Ken
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#21230 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-07, 09:25

View Postkenberg, on 2023-November-07, 09:22, said:

Ok, maybe. But I start with the idea that in any large group, not everyone is the same. Some people are beyond the reach not only of logic and evidence but not everyone is. And we do not need everyone. I think some people who voted for Trump in 2016 will not be voting for him in 2024. We need to increase that number. We do not need to convert everyone, we need to reach those who might still change their minds, as others have. The first step is to allow for the possibility that such people might exist. One argument for this is that if they do not exist then we are doomed no matter what we do. If they do exist, then maybe something can still be done.

Of course this might be naive. Of course. But what else? Either there are some folks out there who are still open to discussion or there are not. If not, well, then that's that.


Yes. The one thing the GOP is good at is PR; Democrats would do well to try and match it.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21231 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-November-07, 10:49

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-November-07, 09:25, said:

Yes. The one thing the GOP is good at is PR; Democrats would do well to try and match it.

LOL if you think Democrats aren't into top-class PR.
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#21232 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-November-07, 16:46

People don't understand my great amusement at all attempts to change the polls making things worse (depending on whose side you are on). Sad for the Democrats
Maybe there are impartials everywhere cheering on the situation
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#21233 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-November-08, 07:48

No political candidate would ever hire me to rune their campaign. Nevertheless, I offer this advice. If, or since, Donald Trump is still a strong contender for the presidency, I suggest that Democratic strategists consider that they need to rethink a few things. "Well, we are doing our best but the voters are just too stupid to listen to us" is not the best approach.
Ken
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#21234 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-08, 13:03

The most noticeable difference I see over the past 30 years is in news coverage. Most outlets seem to have the same motivations as reality TV or pro wrestling, create an artificial conflict, pick a villain, rinse, wash, repeat, whatever it takes to get viewers, clicks, likes, or listeners.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21235 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 02:21

Can I ask assembled experts on their democracy and history if presidents whose second term has been separated by another president have a different character to those who follow on directly for their second term. Maybe I should check the history books
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#21236 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 04:26

View Postthepossum, on 2023-November-09, 02:21, said:

Can I ask assembled experts on their democracy and history if presidents whose second term has been separated by another president have a different character to those who follow on directly for their second term. Maybe I should check the history books


There wasn't any evidence of character the first time.
Non legit hoc
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#21237 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 04:52

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-November-09, 04:26, said:

There wasn't any evidence of character the first time.


I looked up my question and apparently only Grover Cleveland has done it because President Harrison lost support on various matters outside my understanding. And apparently the parties were flipped to the current situation

I was using character in the broader sense of the whole situation :)
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#21238 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 08:57

I will NOT vote for Trump in 2024, Posted Image

but then again I will NOT vote for Biden either.

Charity (compassion) for all.
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#21239 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 10:13

View PostPrecisionL, on 2023-November-09, 08:57, said:

I will NOT vote for Trump in 2024, Posted Image

but then again I will NOT vote for Biden either.

Charity (compassion) for all.



I think you are one among many. I appreciate the post. If you are up for it, I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

There is more than just a little reason to believe that Dems take some pleasure in a Trump nomination, thinking that surely no one in their right mind will vote for Trump. In the last Maryland governor's race, my understanding was that the Dems put some money and effort into helping a Trumpie get the Rep nomination, and so a Dem became governor. But that's a very dangerous game.

I'll be voting for Biden, I think Trump is a walking disaster. But I really miss the times when I could vote my choice among two good candidates. Something where after the election I could say "I voted for X, Y won, but that's ok".
Ken
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#21240 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-November-09, 12:03

View PostPrecisionL, on 2023-November-09, 08:57, said:

I will NOT vote for Trump in 2024, Posted Image

but then again I will NOT vote for Biden either.

Charity (compassion) for all.

Understand please that I am not faulting you. But also understand that not voting Biden will be a de facto vote for Trump.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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