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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#15541 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-June-02, 14:58

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-June-02, 12:58, said:

If you click on the play button, the video will play

You can also download an app if you want
this is not required to play the video


Yes, I just found it overwhelming. I have generally avoided trouble by being cautious, and even when I have regretted something it has been easy enough to deal with. But there have been times when I have regretted something, and for a bit of time I thought this was going to be one of them.
There is some tricky stuff out there, and caution seems right.
Anyway, I am now relaxed about it all..
Ken
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#15542 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2020-June-02, 18:05

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-June-01, 21:46, said:

Now that Trump is trying to go full autocrat, everyone should be reminded that the Republicans in the U.S. Senate had their chance to remove him from office. Remember that in November.

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?
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#15543 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 01:52

View PostChas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?


Maybe the cops would not have the feeling that they could just kill black people and get away with it with Hillary in the white house rather than a white supremacist and the protests would not have been necessary.
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#15544 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 03:59

View PostChas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?


I know that in an earlier post I said that I would rather have duck, any duck, in the White House instead of Donald Trump.. I suppose we could discuss whether a duck would actually be better. But we have Donald Trump in he White House, most unfortunately. We could speculate about what someone else would have done but we are stuck with who we have. I think that a duck could not have done worse. but why speculate.

Donald Trump does not belong in the White House. He doesn't, that's that. His performance has been far worse than I expected when he was elected, and I expected it to be awful.

There is never a duck around when you need one.
Ken
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#15545 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 04:43

View PostChas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?


Quite the straw man you're constructing there...

No one is claiming that there is zero chance that the events of the past couple weeks would have happened if Hillary had won the election. With this said and done, I think that it is absolutely clear that the likelihood that these events occurred is much much higher with Trump in the White House and his reaction once these events occurred has been to stoke the flames.

Two simple data points.

First: compare Trump's action a couple days back in which in which the National Guard used rubber bullets and tear gas against peaceful protestors - all so Trump could have a meaningless photo opp in front of a church - with the speech that Biden gave in Philadelphia yesterday. These are contemporaneous actions and they show the clear differences between Trump and a normal administation.

Second: I don't think that you can over emphasize the ways in which the botched coronavirus response is contributing to the events that are currently unfolding. You have a whole bunch of people who are enormously upset who have a whole lot of free time on their hands.
Alderaan delenda est
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#15546 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 06:48

I will say a bit more about the Chas post because I really do hope to sway some who still have lingering hope for Trump. Maybe not Chas, but maybe someone somewhere.

The pointing to others, Pence or HC or what have you, is an acknowledgement that Trump is scum. Or hopeless. Or, at the least, beyond defense. It has always been like this . It becomes impossible to support a person so what to do? Deflect the conversation.Talk about how awful others would be. This was very much what happened in the Nixon years. Look at what Johnson did. Look at what Truman did. Do anything except look at Nixon.

Trump is far and away the worst president during my lifetime and if I were more of a historian I could probably say the worst president ever. But even more to the point, forget the comparison with others, whether he is better or worse than, I don't know, maybe Van Buren. He is, on his own, a full-fledged disaster. The only thing he could now do to help the country is to resign. Go away. He won't, of course. I am hoping some who voted for him in 2016 will by now have decided not to vote for him in 2020.
Ken
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#15547 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 06:51

Shields and Brooks on George Floyd, 100K coronavirus deaths (May 29):

https://www.youtube....ure=emb_rel_end
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#15548 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 07:02

Here is a big reason why the protests are happening - with all races taking part. This is not policing, but bullying:



Quote

NEW YORK (AP) — New York City police officers surrounded, shoved and yelled expletives at two Associated Press journalists covering protests Tuesday in the latest aggression against members of the media during a week of unrest around the country.

Portions of the incident were captured on video by videojournalist Robert Bumsted, who was working with photographer Maye-E Wong to document the protests in lower Manhattan over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

The video shows more than a half-dozen officers confronting the journalists as they filmed and took photographs of police ordering protesters to leave the area near Fulton and Broadway shortly after an 8 p.m. curfew took effect.

An officer, using an expletive, orders them to go home. Bumsted is heard on video explaining the press are considered "essential workers" and are allowed to be on the streets. An officer responds "I don't give a s—-." Another tells Bumsted "get the f—- out of here you piece of s—-."



This is a turning point. The country is in danger of failure.


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#15549 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 07:42

Ken, it seems I'm not the only ones who think the media has a lot of responsibility for Biden's lack of coverage: The Daily Beast

Quote

Team Biden: The Media Is ***** Up the Election Again


NOT AGAIN The former VP's campaign is growing irritated at the lack of coverage they're getting relative to Trump. And they have additional grumblings for The New York Times.




"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#15550 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 08:30

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-June-03, 07:42, said:

Ken, it seems I'm not the only ones who think the media has a lot of responsibility for Biden's lack of coverage: The Daily Beast








Yes, but your citation only says that the Biden campaign is complaining. I suppose the Beast agrees.


So this is a good opportunity for Biden to show that he can successfully cope with a problem. I suppose the starting point would be to understand why this is happening. Trump complains that the failing NYT is out to get him. That probably wouldn't fly for Biden. He needs to think through just what is happening. Complaining, even if the complaint has some truth to it, only takes him so far. People get enthusiastic about a candidate who can solve problems.



So this is an opportunity.


Ken
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#15551 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 08:59

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 04:43, said:


First: compare Trump's action a couple days back in which in which the National Guard used rubber bullets and tear gas against peaceful protestors -

Quote

And later this afternoon, United States Park Police acting Chief Gregory T. Monahan exploded the entire false narrative:

On Monday, June 1, the USPP worked with the United States Secret Service to have temporary fencing installed inside Lafayette Park. At approximately 6:33 pm, violent protestors on H Street NW began throwing projectiles including bricks, frozen water bottles and caustic liquids. The protestors also climbed onto a historic building at the north end of Lafayette Park that was destroyed by arson days prior. Intelligence had revealed calls for violence against the police, and officers found caches of glass bottles, baseball bats and metal poles hidden along the street.

To curtail the violence that was underway, the USPP, following established policy, issued three warnings over a loudspeaker to alert demonstrators on H Street to evacuate the area. Horse mounted patrol, Civil Disturbance Units and additional personnel were used to clear the area. As many of the protestors became more combative, continued to throw projectiles, and attempted to grab officers’ weapons, officers then employed the use of smoke canisters and pepper balls. No tear gas was used by USPP officers or other assisting law enforcement partners to close the area at Lafayette Park. Subsequently, the fence was installed.

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#15552 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 09:40

Let's assume that I believe ANY of what the NPS police are claiming

(Please note: There's a whole bunch of news reporters who were at the scene who dispute these claims)

How does any of this detract from the central claims???

Is it really matter if the police used pepper spray versus tear gas?
Does the fact that people were climbing on a church justify firing rubber bullets into a crowd?
"Intelligence" suggested that there might be violence?

Does anyone actually believe that what was going on in Layfette park is any different than what is happening in 1,001 other locations in Washington?

Trump wanted a photo op
He thought it would look good if was brandishing a bible in front of a church

He deployed a goon squad to fire on protestors because he cares more about his media narrative than he does about the welfare of American citizens.
Alderaan delenda est
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#15553 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 09:50

View Postkenberg, on 2020-June-03, 08:30, said:

Yes, but your citation only says that the Biden campaign is complaining. I suppose the Beast agrees.

So this is a good opportunity for Biden to show that he can successfully cope with a problem. I suppose the starting point would be to understand why this is happening. Trump complains that the failing NYT is out to get him. That probably wouldn't fly for Biden. He needs to think through just what is happening. Complaining, even if the complaint has some truth to it, only takes him so far. People get enthusiastic about a candidate who can solve problems.



So this is an opportunity.




The sad truth is that Trump is media-savvy and good for ratings and internet clicks. He is accessible and cheap for producers. He has a built-in audience. Even detractors are goaded into clicking onto or reading stories about him. It is Trump, Trump, Trump 24/7.

Not everything he tweets or says is newsworthy. At some point the media should ignore him and what he has said. We, the people, should do the same.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#15554 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 10:31

View PostChas_P, on 2020-June-02, 18:05, said:

Just so that we all understand...are you saying that none of the arson, looting, beatings, etc. would ever have happened had Pence been at the helm? Because he would've been had Trump been removed from office. And here's another hypothetical...Let's assume that Hillary was elected in 2016. Would the arsonists, looters, etc be obeying Her Majesty's decrees and staying at home watching Netflix? Or would they have been on the streets setting fire to police cars, government buildings, stealing liquor, Nike shoes, cigarettes, and Louis Vuitton purses?

It's impossible to prove a hypothetical. But I feel quite confident that things would not be nearly as bad with anyone else at the helm.

I may not agree with Pence's opinions, but he seems like an intelligent, thoughtful person. If something like this happened on his watch, he would try to calm things down, not fan the flames.

Trump is an idiot and bully. He doesn't care about anything except increasing his power and profits.

At one time during the campaign he said he could act "presidential" and gave an impersonation of it. So far during his term, every time we needed him to act presidential, he has utterly failed. He ignored the coronavirus threat until it was too late, and since then his actions have been practically useless, although he continues to claim that they were great. His response to the violence this week have been more authoritarian than presidential.

When he was elected I thought "this sucks, but the country has survived sucky presidents before, we'll get past it". I don't think any of us could have imagined just how disastrous it would be, and now I'm not so sure how well we'll recover. And if he does get reelected, it's game over for the country. It's been a nice 2.5 centuries, but the wonderful experiment in American democracy will have failed.

#15555 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 10:34

  • The account by Monahan was disputed by every single journalist who witnessed it.
  • The denial about using tear gas is something to behold. Not, they didn't use tear gas! They used pepper balls! Which create smoke upon explosion that causes strong eye irritation!! AND THAT'S NOT TEAR GAS!!! JUST GAS CREATING TEARS!!!! (Except the CDC classifies it as...tear gas)
  • Bill Barr ordered Lafayette park to be cleared according to a report in ....Fox news.... Or see the Washington post for a much more detailed account if you can bare it: https://www.washingt...fayette-square/


Of course the insanity of it all is that intentionally and unnecessarily causing people gathered in a large crowd to start coughing in the times of covid-19 is essentially attempted murder.

Anyway, chas_p's defenses of President Bleach seem getting more whimsical by the day. Good news. Maybe he has been looking at Biden-Trump polling lately?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#15556 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 10:56

View Postcherdano, on 2020-June-03, 10:34, said:

[*]The account by Monahan was disputed by every single journalist who witnessed it.


“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
Alderaan delenda est
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#15557 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 12:04

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 10:56, said:

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."



Quote

In his address to the convention in Kansas City, Trump defended his decision to slap tariffs on the U.S.'s trading partners. As Trump told the crowd that "it's all working out," he warned those in the audience against believing what they see in the news.

"What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening," Trump said

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#15558 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 14:06

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-June-03, 09:40, said:


Is it really matter if the police used pepper spray versus tear gas?

He deployed a goon squad to fire on protestors because he cares more about his media narrative than he does about the welfare of American citizens.

You're right. Setting fire to St. Johns church and throwing bricks at the police is all just part of "peaceful" protesting. They really should have sprinkled them with rose petals.
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#15559 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 14:07

No grift is too big, or too small for the Grifter in Chief

President Trump tried to register to vote in Florida using an out-of-state address

Quote

President Trump originally tried to register to vote in Florida while claiming his “legal residence” was in another part of the country — Washington, D.C. — according to Florida elections records.

Doing his part to prove that there is widespread fraud in vote by mail election :rolleyes:

Quote

Trump, however, has sent confusing signals about his official state of residence beyond the recent change on his Florida voter-registration forms. On Monday, he declared, “I live in Manhattan,” during a call with the nation’s governors about the response to unrest related to protests over the death of an unarmed black man who had been held down by police in Minneapolis.

Fanboys of the Manchurian President should be encouraged that the Psychopath in Chief named a city in the USA and not a "foreign" city as his official residence.

Quote

Questions about the legality of Trump’s change of domicile surfaced in the past few weeks during an otherwise mundane fight he’s been waging since 2018 to persuade Palm Beach to let him build a dock at Mar-a-Lago.

Trump initially made the request, which is being considered by the Palm Beach City Council, saying it was needed to enhance security to protect him. He later changed the request, saying Mar-a-Lago is his “personal residence” and that the dock would be “for private family use only.” According to Mar-a-Lago’s website, he maintains “private quarters” at the club. Trump calls Mar-a-Lago his “Winter White House” and has traveled there more than two dozen times during his presidency, staying there well over 100 days, according to a Washington Post tally.

Opponents of the dock unearthed an agreement with the city that Trump signed in the early 1990s converting Mar-a-Lago’s use from a single-family residence to a private club. At the time, his attorney told the council that he would not live at the club, but would have use of the facilities like any other member. The agreement also bans members from staying at the club for more than 21 days a year spread over three nonconsecutive visits.

I personally don't see the problem here. Laws and legal agreements are for poor people, not billionaires. :rolleyes:
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#15560 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-June-03, 14:18

Trump Denies, Then Admits, Going to White House Bunker During Protest

Quote

President Trump on Wednesday first denied and then acknowledged that he had gone to a secure bunker in the White House as protesters demonstrated nearby but said he went there for an “inspection,” not because of concerns over his safety.

Yes, sure we are in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic that has kill 105000+ people in the US, and nationwide demonstrations of the murder of George Floyd. Despite that, the Grifter in Chief took time off from tweeting and watching Fox Propaganda TV to take a trip down to the White House Bunker-a-Logo to check the paint job and carpeting to see whether some serious changes needed to be made. The Manchurian President has the nation's interests at the forefront in these difficult times.
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