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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#14961 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-20, 20:38

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-March-20, 11:17, said:

It's not a cure, it's a treatment of the symptoms which seems to be fairly effective.

It's also comparatively cheap. a few dollars a tablet.


As Dr. Fausti said today in a press conference with Don Trump - the only evidence for this drug is anecdotal and there are no studies done. So, if you and Don want to bet your life on what Ol' Joe down at the bar said his wife saw on QVC about this drug, and Aunt Mary heard about it from Susan, who had a friend whose ex-husvand took it, well, it will probably work - as well as snake oil, anyway. :P
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14962 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-20, 22:00

Pompeo accuses China, Russia and Iran of spreading coronavirus disinformation

We may be short of respirators, medical gloves, medical face masks, ICU beds, but America leads the world in gaslighting. As if anybody could be putting out more disinformation about the COVID-19 pandemic than the Manchurian President.
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#14963 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 03:30

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-March-20, 20:38, said:

As Dr. Fausti said today in a press conference with Don Trump - the only evidence for this drug is anecdotal and there are no studies done. So, if you and Don want to bet your life on what Ol' Joe down at the bar said his wife saw on QVC about this drug, and Aunt Mary heard about it from Susan, who had a friend whose ex-husvand took it, well, it will probably work - as well as snake oil, anyway. :P


It's a bit better than that, "Chloroquine was among the first group of therapies Chinese scientists identified as being effective in curbing the new coronavirus. Clinical trials on about 130 patients demonstrated the drug’s ability to reduce the severity of the illness and speed up virus clearance, according to China’s Ministry of Sciences and Technology." but it is toxic and you don't have to overdose by that much (twice the recommended dose) for it to be dangerous, which is why the Chinese have somewhat rolled back its use.
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#14964 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 14:15

From Shane Harris, Greg Miller, Josh Dawsey and Ellen Nakashima at WaPo March 20, 2020 at 8:10 p.m. EDT

Quote

U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.

The intelligence reports didn’t predict when the virus might land on U.S. shores or recommend particular steps that public health officials should take, issues outside the purview of the intelligence agencies. But they did track the spread of the virus in China, and later in other countries, and warned that Chinese officials appeared to be minimizing the severity of the outbreak.

Taken together, the reports and warnings painted an early picture of a virus that showed the characteristics of a globe-encircling pandemic that could require governments to take swift actions to contain it. But despite that constant flow of reporting, Trump continued publicly and privately to play down the threat the virus posed to Americans. Lawmakers, too, did not grapple with the virus in earnest until this month, as officials scrambled to keep citizens in their homes and hospitals braced for a surge in patients suffering from covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.

Intelligence agencies “have been warning on this since January,” said a U.S. official who had access to intelligence reporting that was disseminated to members of Congress and their staffs as well as to officials in the Trump administration, and who, along with others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive information.

At least seven times over the past two months, President Trump said the number of coronavirus cases in the U.S. were falling or contained even as they rose.

“Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” this official said. “The system was blinking red.”

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#14965 User is offline   gerry 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 15:27

My step-daughter and family live in Washington. She, like many, supports Sanders but seems to believe that Biden should get the nomination as he is the candidate most likely to beat the RIC (Rapist-in-Chief). I believe she is wrong.

Four years ago they thought they had a candidate who could beat the RIC. Biden is more of the same.

No in my view you have to give people a reason to get out of bed. US voter turnout last time was 55% (!!). Last New Zealand election voter turnout was 80%. Almost half of US voters don't bother.

This is the key for me - the 45% who don't vote. The great unwashed need an actual alternative. For the most part Dem candidates have nothing to offer poor voters. Why should they bother? Presidents come and go, parties change but their poverty remains. People will vote for seemingly unlikely candidates if they believe they will get something out of it. Yes most people are scared of change, but millions have nothing to lose. I don't believe you can fight the right by aiming for the middle. You need to take a risk and aim for the left.

Sadly it seems that this is not going to happen.
With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same may mean for some men to do as they please...with the product of other men's labor.

The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of of liberty.

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#14966 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 16:33

View Postgerry, on 2020-March-21, 15:27, said:


This is the key for me - the 45% who don't vote. The great unwashed need an actual alternative. For the most part Dem candidates have nothing to offer poor voters. Why should they bother? Presidents come and go, parties change but their poverty remains. People will vote for seemingly unlikely candidates if they believe they will get something out of it. Yes most people are scared of change, but millions have nothing to lose. I don't believe you can fight the right by aiming for the middle. You need to take a risk and aim for the left.

Sadly it seems that this is not going to happen.


I prefer Bernie's policies to Biden's.

Balanced against this, I think that its much more likely that Biden can get stuff implemented.
And even more important, Biden's supporters show up and vote.

Bernie's did not.

(FWIW, I voted for Warren)
Alderaan delenda est
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#14967 User is offline   gerry 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 17:25

I agree. I just wonder if they would have come out and voted in a presidential election, when the choice is stark, as opposed to a primary.
With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same may mean for some men to do as they please...with the product of other men's labor.

The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of of liberty.

-A. Lincoln
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#14968 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 18:00

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-March-21, 16:33, said:

I prefer Bernie's policies to Biden's.

Balanced against this, I think that its much more likely that Biden can get stuff implemented.
And even more important, Biden's supporters show up and vote.

Bernie's did not.

(FWIW, I voted for Warren)


I donated to and voted for Warren but I knew after a few debates she would not win. I also prefer Sanders ideas but I do not think the time is right for that fight.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14969 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 18:02

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-March-21, 03:30, said:

It's a bit better than that, "Chloroquine was among the first group of therapies Chinese scientists identified as being effective in curbing the new coronavirus. Clinical trials on about 130 patients demonstrated the drug’s ability to reduce the severity of the illness and speed up virus clearance, according to China’s Ministry of Sciences and Technology." but it is toxic and you don't have to overdose by that much (twice the recommended dose) for it to be dangerous, which is why the Chinese have somewhat rolled back its use.


You will excuse me if I take Dr. Faust's word over yours? And I sincerely mean you no offense.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14970 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 18:17

View PostWinstonm, on 2020-March-21, 18:02, said:

You will excuse me if I take Dr. Faust's word over yours? And I sincerely mean you no offense.


No, you're just not accepting the Chinese government medics' views and taking the westerner's. How racist is that, it's not my view, that's why I put the quotes on it.
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#14971 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 18:34

deleted
Alderaan delenda est
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#14972 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 19:04

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-March-21, 16:33, said:

Balanced against this, I think that its much more likely that Biden can get stuff implemented.
...
(FWIW, I voted for Warren)

TBH, all the talk about who can get things done is silly and premature. If they Democrats don't also get at least 50 seats in the Senate, basically nothing will get done if Moscow Mitch is still the Majority Leader. Only innocuous bills that are non-partisan will get passed, so none of any of the Democrats goals have a chance to get passed by the Senate.

And for any "real" Democratic proposals to get passed, the Senate will have to repeal the filibuster and other delay tactics the frequently make the Senate non-functional, no matter who the Democratic candidate happens to be.

I would have voted for Warren but she withdrew from the race before I had the chance, and after Biden has pretty much locked up the nomination. I am proposing that my state move the presidential primaries back to the 1st Tuesday after Nov 1 to coincide with the presidential elections. Since there is basically only 1 candidate left running by the time we vote, there is no point in spending money to confirm the winner when we can do that in the presidential election.
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#14973 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 19:17

View Postgerry, on 2020-March-21, 15:27, said:

My step-daughter and family live in Washington. She, like many, supports Sanders but seems to believe that Biden should get the nomination as he is the candidate most likely to beat the RIC (Rapist-in-Chief). I believe she is wrong.

Four years ago they thought they had a candidate who could beat the RIC. Biden is more of the same.

No in my view you have to give people a reason to get out of bed. US voter turnout last time was 55% (!!). Last New Zealand election voter turnout was 80%. Almost half of US voters don't bother.

This is the key for me - the 45% who don't vote. The great unwashed need an actual alternative. For the most part Dem candidates have nothing to offer poor voters. Why should they bother? Presidents come and go, parties change but their poverty remains. People will vote for seemingly unlikely candidates if they believe they will get something out of it. Yes most people are scared of change, but millions have nothing to lose. I don't believe you can fight the right by aiming for the middle. You need to take a risk and aim for the left.

Sadly it seems that this is not going to happen.



I have at least partial agreement with you as to what the problem is. Dems need someone who will inspire voters to, as you put it, get out of bed. Hillary Clinton wasn't what was needed. Joe Biden is not Hillary Clinton, but still.


I don't move from there to "Well, Sanders then". Mostly, I keep it simple. The Maryland primary is far in the future, the nomination is settled. But if it were to vote tomorrow, Joe or Bernie, I would vote for Biden because I prefer Biden to Sanders. I wish I could say I would vote for Biden because I think he would make a truly great president, but while people surprise you sometimes I am not really expecting that. I wasn't all that fond of any of the candidates. By keeping it simple I mean I vote for the guy I think is best. That's not really crazy. If everyone does that then the one that wins must have a fairly good size group of people who think that s/he is the best.


The Dems have an identity crisis and it might not be getting all that resolved. Again, it would help if everyone voted for the person they thought best. It would be useful if, after Biden gets the nomination, everyone could agree that this was because a majority actually liked him more than they liked Sanders. But no, the way it is going the argument will be "Well, no, it isn't that people liked him, they actually liked Bernie but they voted for Biden for tactical reasons". But the only thing that can be counted are the votes. I'm saying it would be good if the votes reflected preferences.


I like simple. I really do. Vote for the person you like best, then count the votes to see who the voters like best. Maybe that would be Bernie, but I don't think so.

Ken
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#14974 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 19:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-March-21, 18:17, said:

No, you're just not accepting the Chinese government medics' views and taking the westerner's. How racist is that, it's not my view, that's why I put the quotes on it.


Quote

China, where the deadly pathogen first emerged in December, recommended the decades-old malaria drug chloroquine to treat infected patients in guidelines issued in February after seeing encouraging results in clinical trials. But within days, it cautioned doctors and health officials about the drug’s lethal side effects and rolled back its usage.

Read more at: https://www.bloomber...-just-two-grams
Copyright © BloombergQuint


More here:
https://www.gazetten...n-kill-33461328


Trump is a snake oil salesman. Perhaps some day snake oil will actually work. Until that day arrives, I will not buy a bottle of Trump Elixir and neither should you.

Max Boot, writing in the WaPo seems to agree with me:

Quote

Utterly lacking in empathy, Trump is incapable of rallying a shell-shocked nation. When asked on Friday, “What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared?,” Trump launched into a tirade against the reporter who asked the question. Like the snake-oil salesman that he is, his version of reassurance is to tout miracle cures that have not been verified by medical science.
my emphasis

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14975 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2020-March-21, 19:51

Worthwhile read: https://www.emptywhe...ence-community/

Quote

The money line repeats one the CIA used to describe how George Bush ignored warnings about 9/11: the system was blinking red.

“Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” this official said. “The system was blinking red.”

What’s key though (and, because of editing decisions, doesn’t get a lot of focus in the story) is one reason why Trump didn’t heed the warnings of his briefers: because he believed Xi Jingpeng more than he believed the US intelligence community.
my emphasis

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#14976 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-22, 00:48

Criminal incompetence in full display for the world to see:

Trump says Defense Production Act in 'high gear' after saying he'd only use in worst case scenario

After 2 plus months of seeing the tsunami of COVID-19 sweeping towards the US and threatening to swamp the health care system, and doing basically absolutely the absolute bare minimum anybody could expect from POTUS, the Grifter in Chief claims he enacted a Korean War law known as the Defense Production Act which allows the federal government to direct private industry to switch production to crucial supplies and equipment.

Quote

Hours after announcing he'd signed the measure, Trump tweeted he would only use it in a "worst case scenario." Some of Trump's advisers and allies have warned against using the measure as a way to force commercial enterprises into wartime production of supplies.

On Thursday, Trump said it was the responsibility of individual governors to ensure their states have sufficient levels of supplies and said the federal government shouldn't be acting as a "shipping clerk."

Except for Right Fringe wackjobs who believed the Manchurian President that this was a media hoax, how could any sane person believe that we aren't in a worst case scenario right now???
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#14977 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-March-22, 00:59

More incompetence on a state level in a state that voted for the Manchurian President by 68.5% in 2016.

The story behind West Virginia's 'no coronavirus' statistic

Remember when the Grifter in Chief was touting Red State West Virgina for having no COVID-19 cases? Now you know the story behind that one.
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#14978 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-March-22, 04:03

Winston, you're quoting almost EXACTLY what I said, it is effective but they rolled back using it because it's very easy to overdose. The toxic side effects are because you have to get the dosage right and that's difficult, it can be lethal if you give only twice as much as you should, making it VERY difficult to use.

Dr Fausti was wrong that it was ineffective, but may be right that it is not the answer.
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#14979 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2020-March-22, 04:16

Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-22, 04:03, said:

Dr Fausti was wrong that it was ineffective, but may be right that it is not the answer.

You might also consider the possibility that Dr Fausti has a little more experience evaluating such treatments than you. Most (by which I mean probably more than 95%) new treatments with the amount of evidence we have at the moment for hydroxychloroquine not pan out when they are tested with bigger and more systematic studies.

Here is an article about the "evidence": https://www.vox.com/...id-19-treatment
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#14980 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-March-22, 05:02

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-March-22, 04:03, said:


Dr Fausti was wrong that it was ineffective, but may be right that it is not the answer.

Mega doses of arsenic have been found to extremely effective, both in suppressing breathing problems and stopping people from spreading the virus.
And yet, no one describes this as an effective treatment
Alderaan delenda est
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