[cherdano]

Trinidad, on 2015-April-08, 13:15, said:

What kind of hand can partner have that wouldn't cue after your serious 3NT? If we are off three keycards then partner will cuebid a king.
If partner will always cuebid, what difference does it then make whether you keycard immediately or after 3NT-cue?

Rik

I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2015-April-11, 05:22, said:

I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.

Why would that hand bid 3♠? It is not even a gf hand depending on your opening style, but started gf anyway and now pouring more fuel to the fire? It is either 4♠ or if that shows 5 clubs than 2 NT and 4♠. But even though I am fan of starting with 2♣ with 4♠ and gf hands, I would start with 1♠ intending to invite in hearts later with 3 card supp. Same goes with Andy's example. I would start 2♣ with his example but not bid 3♠.

[PhilKing]

The hand is clearly worth a serious 3NT. But say partner cues 4♣ and we bid 4♦, I would respect a 4♠ sign off, since partner will never do that with three key cards.

Anyway, it produced a comic sequence for a pair playing in my regular team (I was guesting for another team). 1♥-2♣-2♠-3♠-4♠.

[cherdano]

MrAce, on 2015-April-11, 06:08, said:

Why would that hand bid 3♠? It is not even a gf hand depending on your opening style, but started gf anyway and now pouring more fuel to the fire? It is either 4♠ or if that shows 5 clubs than 2 NT and 4♠. But even though I am fan of starting with 2♣ with 4♠ and gf hands, I would start with 1♠ intending to invite in hearts later with 3 card supp. Same goes with Andy's example. I would start 2♣ with his example but not bid 3♠.

Well, 4S is a picture bid (see the OP). 2N-then-4S for me would show a 18-19 balanced with three very good spades - you can't undo denying four-card support.
If this is not a GF, just turn the K of spades into the A.

But for me the main point is that I just don't understand the mind set of "Let's just bid 4N, it works 85% of the time". Is our slam bidding really in such a sad state that we cannot get partner to appreciate hands with three keycards more than hands with one keycard? Maybe there is no plan that works 100% of the time, but there are certainly plans that work more often than keycard directly.

[aguahombre]

cherdano, on 2015-April-11, 05:22, said:

I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.

How can he have that hand? I thought 2C was game forcing opposite a modern 1H opening.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2015-April-11, 07:28, said:

The hand is clearly worth a serious 3NT. But say partner cues 4♣ and we bid 4♦, I would respect a 4♠ sign off, since partner will never do that with three key cards.

Yes. The only problem with 3NT is that it will sometimes get us to the five-level when we don't belong there, for example opposite AKxx xxx Kx KQJx. Does anyone play anything more sophisticated after 1♥-2♣;2♠, which would let opener show the nature of his hand?

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2015-April-11, 09:02, said:

Well, 4S is a picture bid (see the OP). 2N-then-4S for me would show a 18-19 balanced with three very good spades - you can't undo denying four-card support.
If this is not a GF, just turn the K of spades into the A.

Ok, I am sorry for you that you tied up your hands and legs with almost never coming this picture bid and/or spared a very important auction to a 3 card fit and 18-19 hcp, and have to bid with 3♠ with all 4 card bids and strength or shape or controls when 3♠ is pretty space consuming.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of fast arrival and I understand that "picture bids" regardless of auction, means "rare hands" that needs showing rather than asking. And I like them. But imho 2 NT is under employed by many pairs by rejecting fit. Imo again, if we are going to start 2♣ with your example and Andy's, instead of 1♠, we should have better options than just having to bid 3♠ over 2♠. And with all due respect to "picture bids" and or whatever range 3 card fit bids, they should not be priority.

EDIT: I agree with P.K that pd will never reject a serious slam try with 3 keycards btw. I would not reject even a non serious slam try with 3 of them.

[cherdano]

MrAce, on 2015-April-11, 15:00, said:

Ok, I am sorry for you that you tied up your hands and legs with almost never coming this picture bid and/or spared a very important auction to a 3 card fit and 18-19 hcp, and have to bid with 3♠ with all 4 card bids and strength or shape or controls when 3♠ is pretty space consuming.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of fast arrival and I understand that "picture bids" regardless of auction, means "rare hands" that needs showing rather than asking. And I like them. But imho 2 NT is under employed by many pairs by rejecting fit. Imo again, if we are going to start 2♣ with your example and Andy's, instead of 1♠, we should have better options than just having to bid 3♠ over 2♠. And with all due respect to "picture bids" and or whatever range 3 card fit bids, they should not be priority.

Obviously you are right that it would be good to distinguish balanced and unbalanced 4-card spade raises. But I think the cost of adding some 4-card support hands into 2N is also big.

The point of 2N denying a four-card fit is to simplify the auction after 2N. Auctions are more complicated when we don't have a fit yet, so we should leave more space for them. Meanwhile, I would bid 2N with any hand that has <=3 spades, <=2 hearts, and <=5 clubs, as well as with many hands with 6 clubs. I don't think I am underemploying it!
Meanwhile, once 2N denies 4-card support, you can have auctions such as 1H-2C-2S-2N-3H-3S = do you have a little bit of help for 3N, pretty please? Or 1H-2C-2S-2N-3C-3S = I was kidding about a spade stopper, but maybe we can play a 4-3 spade fit? Etc.