Ethical Dilemma
#1
Posted 2015-December-30, 02:18
Person B goes to considerable length to meet person A's requirements.
Meanwhile person A changes their mind and decides that they don't want to do what they promised.
What are the obligations and reasonable expectations in this sort of situation.
Assume the promise was to do some normal actions that might occur between any two people. Nothing illegal or dreadfully immoral - not killing your first born or sleeping with the bosses wife. So it is just a matter of person A no longer wanting to do what had been promised (agreed).
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#2
Posted 2015-December-30, 02:36
In which case go for option 2, then failing that option 1 (you could go for the throat directly at option 1, but option 2 would remain available and probably the practical first choice).
If there is no legal contract, then go for option 2, then failing that legally option 3 but ethically option 1.
I guess. This is not legal advice.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
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"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#4
Posted 2015-December-30, 07:23
The saying: "Don't make promises that you can't (or won't) keep." comes to mind.
#5
Posted 2015-December-30, 08:00
Yes a person can change his mind. But he then owes the other both an explanation and a statement of regret.
I think that it matters just what the agreement is. You explain that it is not "Strangers on a Train", an old Hitchcock film about an agreement (well, more like a presumed agreement) between two men to kill each other's wives. But is it the sort of thing where the guy backing out might well have regrets about the propriety of what he has agreed to do? This would be more understandable than backing out of an agreement such as "You help be dig and plant the gardent then I will help you paint the house".
Another way to put it: We all fall short of what we would like to be, but we need to recognize that this indeed would be a failure.
#7
Posted 2015-December-30, 08:22
#8
Posted 2015-December-30, 08:37
hrothgar, on 2015-December-30, 08:22, said:
East
xxx
Qxxxx
Txxx
x
Bidding:
1♣-1♥
2♠1)-?
1) GF by agreement
See also http://www.bridgebas...se-gameforcing/
#9
Posted 2015-December-30, 08:42
-gwnn
#10
Posted 2015-December-30, 08:44
Person A:
Deliver on your promise, whether you like it or not. A promise is meant to be kept, if you don't keep it, you are a a jerk. If it is not possible to keep your promise, you owe person B compensation for his efforts + some bonus.
Person B:
Forget about the promise. Put person B on your list of people who can't be trusted. That doesn't mean that person B can't be a friend to do fun stuff with. But it does mean that you don't give him your wallet.
To me a promise is sacred. As a consequence, I rarely make promises.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!), but Thats funny Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#11
Posted 2015-December-30, 09:14
People mess up sometimes, that's a fact of life. But if you make a habit of it, you'll get a reputation as being untrustworthy, and people will stop doing favors for you if they don't think you'll reciprocate.
#12
Posted 2015-December-30, 12:36
#14
Posted 2015-December-30, 14:49
Cascade, on 2015-December-30, 02:18, said:
Person B goes to considerable length to meet person A's requirements.
Meanwhile person A changes their mind and decides that they don't want to do what they promised.
What are the obligations and reasonable expectations in this sort of situation.
Assume the promise was to do some normal actions that might occur between any two people. Nothing illegal or dreadfully immoral - not killing your first born or sleeping with the bosses wife. So it is just a matter of person A no longer wanting to do what had been promised (agreed).
Shakespeare's Portia, in The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene 1 said:
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown:
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.
#15
Posted 2015-December-30, 20:17
You are dead to me.
Varying degrees of hurt bring me at least to the edge of the same thing and I agree that it is not an ethical dilemma. A promise is just that.
What is baby oil made of?
#16
Posted 2015-December-30, 22:48
billw55, on 2015-December-30, 08:42, said:
I used "dilemma" because person A thought the third (bottom) option that no one here has chosen whilst person B thought either of the first two would be appropriate. Although if there was negotiation person A seems to be in a weaker position.
Person A in this situation certainly thought there was a dilemma. Person A claimed it was a hard decision to choose the third option.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#17
Posted 2015-December-30, 23:27
As for bidding agreements, those are not promises to anyone. You do take the chance, if you violate your agreements regularly, of losing that partner.
In nullve's example, in the unlikely event that I psyched and it does look like a psych to me 1♥ with that hand, after partner's GF jump shift, I would raise his second suit to game, and apologize when I put the dummy down.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#18
Posted 2015-December-31, 08:34
Cascade, on 2015-December-30, 22:48, said:
Person A in this situation certainly thought there was a dilemma. Person A claimed it was a hard decision to choose the third option.
I gave an opinion but I did not cast a vote. My reasoning:
Of course the third option is correct. Person A is in control. Person B has done as he said he would do, person A can now do as he said he would do or he can say screw you, I'm not doing it. If I were person B I would not be listening very carefully to person A's recital of how difficult a decision this was for him.
You say that it involved " Nothing illegal or dreadfully immoral". "not dreadfully immoral" may depend a bit on the person doing the dreading. If this is something where A now feels that what he agreed to do is simply not an action that he can take then he made a serious error by ever agreeing to it in the first place but possibly A and B can work their way through this. Maybe A agreed to introduce B to his sister and has, after getting to know B a little better, had second thoughts about this.
It's hard to say in the abstract. Generally, it seems it is time for A and B to go their separate ways.
#19
Posted 2015-December-31, 09:43
PhantomSac, on 2015-December-30, 04:18, said:
If people can't get empathetic, thoughtful feedback here in the water cooler, why even have the internet?
#20
Posted 2015-December-31, 09:55
nullve, on 2015-December-30, 08:37, said:
xxx
Qxxxx
Txxx
x
Bidding:
1♣-1♥
2♠1)-?
1) GF by agreement
See also http://www.bridgebas...se-gameforcing/
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between appropriate behavior in a game and in real life.
There are any number of games (Diplomacy, Illuminati, Cosmic Encounters being classic examples) in which "breaking one's word" is expected behavior.
The rules almost demand it.
I would argue that bridge falls in such a category.
The conditions of contest require that one does one's best to win events.
At times, this mandates making a false card.
I don't consider any of this remotely germane to behavior in real life.