[Lovera]

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[Lovera]

 Lovera, on 2014-November-02, 04:53, said:

East has an hand valutated in 19 points (and with 3 Aces and 2 Kings i wonder myself if doesn't think to slam) After 1♠ West 2♠ raise for 9-11points and with probable honor (surplus)..

[the hog]

 Jinksy, on 2014-October-18, 04:00, said:

Good one for Fantunes, too. Same start as wank's, though I wouldn't know what 4♠ meant or expect my partner to 'know' it the same as me if I did (I'd also be worried as E that W might have 3433, so I'd like to keep it clear that ♣s are the agreed suit). Once we check on keycards, we play E's 6♠ as 'bid up with one of the top three honours in the suit'.

"though I wouldn't know what 4♠ meant or expect my partner to 'know' it the same as me."
So 7c is there. Please!

[the hog]

 mikeh, on 2014-October-19, 10:50, said:

This is a classic bbf thread

Both hands are known and, guess what, lots of players claim that they would have no trouble at all reaching grand.

BBF attracts a lot of players who bid extremely well when they know both hands.

Yes I agree and it is funny, though if you play a relay system and have no interference this really is trivial.

1C 1NT Bal 9+
2C 3D 3334
3H 3S 5 or less CP
4C 4S something in S, H but not D
4N 5D something in C not in S
5H 5S no second card in H,
5N 6C no DJ
6D 6S C jack no S Ten

Now if you are happy, there you go.

[aguahombre]

Agree with Mikeh, here. The title is "anyone find this grand?" The answer obviously is yes. We simply look at the two hands and find it.

If the question was, "Would you bid this grand?", the answer is equally obvious for me. I wouldn't have both hands available for inspection during the auction and I don't know Fantunes.

I also don't know if a 3-3-3-4 nine-count is a 2C response in Acol, but, if it is --wow. but, heck, I don't even know if a 4-cM style can even raise 1S to 2 with that.

[Lovera]

 aguahombre, on 2014-November-02, 08:43, said:

Agree with Mikeh, here. The title is "anyone find this grand?" The answer obviously is yes. We simply look at the two hands and find it.

If the question was, "Would you bid this grand?", the answer is equally obvious for me. I wouldn't have both hands available for inspection during the auction and I don't know Fantunes.

I also don't know if a 3-3-3-4 nine-count is a 2C response in Acol, but, if it is --wow. but, heck, I don't even know if a 4-cM style can even raise 1S to 2 with that.

(I also don't know if ........--wow) With this occasion (i don't know if you refer to my post n. 20) i want to say that, obviously, are not in the hand 12 points that makes correct bidding (in that case for delayed raise in spade) but 9 points as you see (correction) in post 21, bye.

[Lovera]

 Lovera, on 2014-November-02, 09:18, said:

(I also don't know if ........--wow) With this occasion (i don't know if you refer to my post n. 20) i want to say that, obviously, are not in the hand 12 points that makes correct bidding (in that case for delayed raise in spade) but 9 points as you see (correction) in post 22, bye.

[Lovera]

 kenrexford, on 2014-October-18, 05:00, said:

I have a tool from my cue bidding book which makes this trivial. After a simple start of a 1S opening and 2S raise, Opener bids 3C as a natural game or slam try. Now the trick. Responder bids 3NT accepting. 3NT by Responder artificially agrees game while also showing 4-card support for Opener's second suit.

Opener can now bid 4C. No matter what suit Opener shows (and Responder also supports), 4C as one up over 3NT agrees that second suit, shows slam interest, and asks for more information about controls/keys. Finding 7d is trivial from there.

The problem is this: to try bidding for 7♣ naturally without to think initially to get there. After raise we know that probably we can go up 4♠ because for a (possible) little slam in spade we can support a loser (in heart ?). Than RKCB reveils 1Ace and now with 4 Aces we can consider "possibility" of grand slam but if let's see the hand exchanging 8♦ with Q or J ♣ we have same points for 2♠ but slam is not so easy if we don't reveil double fit in club (with 4 as cards lie..) and how or why we must do it ?

[Lovera]

[quote name='Lovera' timestamp='1414925935' post='817954']
In my post n. 20 there is (yet ) a mistake about value: infact this hand is not valuted 19 points (as i said) but, instead, its valutation is 23 points; than and collaterally having 4 losers .. may be opened 2♣ for an easy develope: 2♦, 2♠-2NT, 3♣ ...But, it being more interesting when it is raise in spade (looking for double fit) we can only say that we are already in "slam zone" and via RKCB having ultherior information n. 0 Kings we must think that rest of points (min.5)
can be 3 J + 1Q or 1 J + 2Q but (anew) why we can do all this and where are points (such as change 4 clubs and 3 diamonds with 3 clubs and 4 diamonds..!) (I'm sorry for so many post in this topic but i had to precise, bye).

[neilkaz]

After 1♠-2♠ which is how I'd expect my auction to start I am happy to find 6♠.

[yunling]

As responder I'll just bid 4♠ over 1♠-2♠-3♣ which makes it almost impossible to reach 7♣.
I don't see why should I bid 4♣ here. This 4333 9 count is far from great, I'm more concerned about going down in 4♠ due to information leakage, rather than missing a slam in ♣.
Playing strong club and relays you can find out everything, but probably they will interfere and you end up in 6♠ anyway.

[Cascade]

 the hog, on 2014-November-02, 05:29, said:

Yes I agree and it is funny, though if you play a relay system and have no interference this really is trivial.

1C 1NT Bal 9+
2C 3D 3334
3H 3S 5 or less CP
4C 4S something in S, H but not D
4N 5D something in C not in S
5H 5S no second card in H,
5N 6C no DJ
6D 6S C jack no S Ten

Now if you are happy, there you go.

Of course the hand is easy for relay. In my relay system I learn 3=3=3=4 and two controls (A=2, K=1) and on the next ask I find a club honour, spade honour, heart honour and no diamond honour so I can place ♠Q, ♥A and ♣Q. Easy.

[Cascade]

 aguahombre, on 2014-November-02, 08:43, said:

but, heck, I don't even know if a 4-cM style can even raise 1S to 2 with that.

May depend on your four-card major style. The way I play 1♠ is almost always five. It is only four in a 4=3=3=3 hand with 15-19 (15-17 in some partnerships). That is well over 90% it is five spades.

We routinely raise with three and it rarely causes any problems. The only problem is when opener is around 15-16 with the 4=3=3=3 and judges too weak to move with a natural no trump rebid.

[Cascade]

 yunling, on 2014-November-03, 16:55, said:

This 4333 9 count is far from great, I'm more concerned about going down in 4♠ due to information leakage, rather than missing a slam in ♣.

The hand is fantastic in support of clubs if 3♣ shows four, since everyone of your high cards are working - spade honours, club honours and an ace.

[Cthulhu D]

 yunling, on 2014-November-03, 16:55, said:

As responder I'll just bid 4♠ over 1♠-2♠-3♣ which makes it almost impossible to reach 7♣.
I don't see why should I bid 4♣ here. This 4333 9 count is far from great, I'm more concerned about going down in 4♠ due to information leakage, rather than missing a slam in ♣.
Playing strong club and relays you can find out everything, but probably they will interfere and you end up in 6♠ anyway.

You need to have decided whether 3C can be a slam try in disguise. If so, as Cascade points out, you owe partner 4C.

[kenrexford]

As a related aside, why is there a bizarre tendency to comment about not disclosing too much in a natural system, thereby missing slam, but then to comment on how a relay system works. A relay system discloses also, unless somehow playing a relay system induces idiocy in the opponents.

[the hog]

 kenrexford, on 2014-November-03, 19:47, said:

As a related aside, why is there a bizarre tendency to comment about not disclosing too much in a natural system, thereby missing slam, but then to comment on how a relay system works. A relay system discloses also, unless somehow playing a relay system induces idiocy in the opponents.

This is true. Even though only one hand shows, you can glean a lot of inferences from the asking hand as well in terms of WHAT the asking hand is trying to find out. This is particularly true if you have C1 and C2 types of asks available. Of course you need to be a thinking player in order to interpret these inferences.

[Lovera]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-October-18, 17:04, said:

loled.

You still probably need 6KC blackwood to reach 7 since you need to find out about both queens.

I know classical Blackwood is ruled differently in case 2♣ opening and 2♦ answer by partner (such as 4NT? - 5NT means A + Q) Is it so also for RKCB and in this case what is scale ?

[Lovera]

I want to remember that 4NT (roll) Blackwood over 2♣ - 2♦ (=minus of 3 Kings or an Ace and KQ) is ruled so: with 0 A and 0 K= 5 clubs, 1 K = 5 diamonds, 2 K = 5 hearts, 1 A = 5 spades, 1 A and 1 Q= 5 NT. Eventually (between expert players) ultherior roll askings are done for knowing number of queens..(From "Il libro completo del bridge di gara" di Guido Barbone pag. 515). In topic "Problem initiating RKCB" is said that in this case (2♣ -..) 4NT is not RKCB than (probably) we must bid as i have indicated. But now my question is: there is incompatibility in this case to apply 6 cards RKCB or we can avoid (and how ?) it ? If let's consider that Queen of spade is pair in 6 cards RKCB to a King and 5 ♥ ask Queen 5 ♠ should indicate Queen of clubs + Queen of spade and so we have what we looking for.

[Lovera]

The information of two Queens being way to reach 7♣ (togheter longness in spade) there will be enter 6 level either 6 cards RKCB (www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/6AceRKCB.html) or as i have said using RKCB0-3 1-4. Infact 6 cards RKCB occurs when is descovered a double fit in expicit way (two suit reciprocally raised) or implicitally when from bidding cannot be exclude a raise in another suit.