[Cyberyeti]

Came across a hand that gave me a problem yesterday, wonder what you'd assume about the following with no specific agreement.

You open 2♣ (22+ balanced or a GF)
LHO bids 2♥ (natural)
Partner doubles showing 0-3
RHO bids 2♠ (natural)

What do P, X, 2N show here ?

[ahydra]

I would expect 2N to be the big balanced hand with stops in both majors. X should be for penalties (?), but no idea about pass.

ahydra

[ArtK78]

Pass is a big balanced hand.

Double is for penalties, which could be based on a big balanced hand with a lot of stuff in spades.

Bids are natural (including a bid in either of the opponents' suits, disclosing the psyche).

2NT really does not exist, but it could be a big minor two suiter.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:30, said:

Pass is a big balanced hand.

Double is for penalties, which could be based on a big balanced hand with a lot of stuff in spades.

Bids are natural (including a bid in either of the opponents' suits, disclosing the psyche).

2NT really does not exist, but it could be a big minor two suiter.

I think those are the standard meanings. Except the part about 2NT, since I avoid 2C with 2-suiters like the plague. Maybe a big trick-taker with bullets in their suits as opposed to the run-of-the-mill big balanced hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass is forcing, 2C forced our side to play at least 2NT?
That p showed, he has nothing, does no change a lot, at least
undiscussed.

Hence standard forcing pass agreements are in action.
As far as I know X is penalty, pass no clear direction, 2NT
is certainly natural.
But if in your area the standard FP agreements are different, than
those apply.

We play X as T/O.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

2NT natural
double balanced (difference between double and 2NT depends on vulnerability and stops)
All suits natural, including hearts and spades

What does that leave for pass? Logically the last hand type is a 3-suited take out, short in spades. Could be both minors.

[Cyberyeti]

My first thoughts at the table were

P = min bal NF 22-23 or 24
X = T/O by our default agreements but not sure what it should be here
2N = bigger balanced

I had:

Ax, AJx, KQJx, AKxx and couldn't make my mind up between P/X

And I disagree with Uwe, we can avoid a sizable penalty with a slightly different 22 opposite 0 if P is NF.

[MrAce]

I think not playing dbl as penalty here is looking for trouble. This is a very common psyche position and RHO can bid anything when he has ♥ support.

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2014-October-13, 17:00, said:

I think not playing dbl as penalty here is looking for trouble. This is a very common psyche position and RHO can bid anything when he has ♥ support.

This was why I was worried about it, our default is that undiscussed doubles are assumed to be takeout. We have a few meta rules that say doubles in particular situations are penalty and all others are takeout, and this isn't covered by any of the rules.

[aguahombre]

IMO, when the big hand is "live", not in the dead seat, takeout (directionless) passes and penalty doubles should be the meta. I don't think that would step too harshly on the "all doubles takeout" adherents.

[gszes]

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:30, said:

Pass is a big balanced hand.

Double is for penalties, which could be based on a big balanced hand with a lot of stuff in spades.

Bids are natural (including a bid in either of the opponents' suits, disclosing the psyche).

2NT really does not exist, but it could be a big minor two suiter.

I would use 3h/s as asking for a stopper in those suits for 3n purposes and not worry about
exposing psyches at the 3 level (*especially true for spades since there is an option to x
for penalty). We can save the psyche control to 4h/*s since p is close to broke anyway.

[P_Marlowe]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-October-13, 15:57, said:

My first thoughts at the table were

P = min bal NF 22-23 or 24
X = T/O by our default agreements but not sure what it should be here
2N = bigger balanced

I had:

Ax, AJx, KQJx, AKxx and couldn't make my mind up between P/X

And I disagree with Uwe, we can avoid a sizable penalty with a slightly different 22 opposite 0 if P is NF.

I dont mind the agreement, that pass is Non Forcing, I would just take pass as Forcing, if undiscussed.
We play X as T/O in this seq., default agreement, which would apply here, and this would be perfect with
your hand.

[SteveMoe]

I like pass=forcing (under 3♠). Partner can bid or transfer to a 5-card suit (what do you do?) or double with ♠ shortness (0-2).

2N is Balanced with M's stopped.

Double is 3 suiter (not ♠) Could be 2(344) or any 1(345)/1(444) or 0(445).

Solves the problem what to do with big hands and one or no Major stopped and no biddable 5-card suit.

3♠ and above I like Double = pens, pass = balanced or 3-suiter, and NT to play (usually a source of tricks, not strength).

[aguahombre]

Fortunately I don't have a 4X1 or 5440 that opens 2C. So, a little less to ponder. 5-4-3-1 was going to pretend it was balanced, and on a stiff spade here, I am probably screwed.