[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-28, 04:54, said:

But what is your point?

The sequences are essentially symmetrical (except they aren't, but bear with me) so what is the benefit. The difference is that my way avoids languishing in 2♥ when cold for slam in another denomination. I get to show hearts by bidding them and three suits by doubling - you do not always get a second chance when you overcall this strong.

And the reason the methods are not symetrical is that at some point, a 4513/3514 hand becomes too strong to overcall whatever your style. I like to double when 2♥ can lead to playing there when cold for a grand somewhere else, this may be old-fashioned, but it stops the silly results. My method of of double followed by 4♥ if they boost to 4♦ is unambiguous - it DENIES 6 hearts (if it gets me to a 4-3 spade fit now and again, that is fine). Yours promises six hearts (or the equivalent) so you sometimes have to double with this shape and miss the 5-3 fit. Conversely, if I overcall 2♥ and then double, I promise 6 hearts and 3613 or similar.

Also the 3631 hand strong enough to double then bid hearts is rare - it's a useful sequence that is massively underused in your scheme. I've produced booklets from my database generally consisting of 60 hands for nearly every preempt under the sun for my various teams which we bid and then compare with the original auctions, and by far the biggest technical error of even world-class pairs, is the massive underuse of takeout doubles on shapes like this (the biggest non-technical error is rampant overbidding with "slam invitations", but that is another issue).

In style for me, you don't bid bad suits with known good hands if you can avoid it, so (2♦)-2♥-(3♦)-P-(P)-X makes less of a promise about the heart suit than doubling first then bidding hearts which would be at worst a good 5 card heart suit with the same point count, if I had 6 decent hearts I'd have bid 3♥ first time although what I do with 6 good hearts and 4 spades is not clear, I'd be worried partner took me for that if I doubled and bid 3♥.

[whereagles]

kenberg, on 2014-July-28, 06:31, said:

Hypothetical situation;
(2♦)-X-(3♦)--P
P-3♥-P-?

Let's give partner something like this 5=2=2=4:
Jxxxx
Kx
xx
xxxx

You'd like to bid 4♠ now, but can't be sure pard has 3 of those. I suppose you're endplayed into bidding 3♠ and leave doubler the last guess (i.e. guess that this is choice of games!!). Definitely more messy than 2♥+dbl: now you can bid 4♠ confidently.

There is one way out for dbl+3♥, which is to play something like ELC style. I.e. that 3♥ here shows a flexible hand with extras. In this case you can bid 4♠ without trepidation.

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on 2014-July-28, 08:05, said:

I.e. that 3♥ here shows a flexible hand with extras. In this case you can bid 4♠ without trepidation.

I thought it did show the flexible hand type - what do you think is standard if not this?

[biggerclub]

Deleted as too trite to leave up.

[biggerclub]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-27, 12:14, said:

I'm going to bid 4♥ - sue me.

This depends on your double showing at least something in all unbids, though. "I prefer ♥ partner, but if you really hate them, I can stand the black suits." Right?

[biggerclub]

kenberg, on 2014-July-28, 06:31, said:

Note to OP: This has turned into a very interesting discussion (for me, at least).

Hypothetical situation;
(2♦)-X-(3♦)--P
P-3♥-P-?


Let's give partner something like this 5=2=2=4:
Jxxxx
Kx
xx
xxxx

If I held this, I would pass on the first round over the opponent's 3♦. Now, on the second round, I must decide whether to convert to 3♠ or, perhaps, to bid game in one major or the other. If I can trust partner to have three spades, no doubt I should convert to spades at some level, especially if the hearts might be Ace ampty fifth. 3♠ seems right, somehow passing on the first round and jumping on the second seems to mean that one of those calls is wrong. Although as 4 point hands go, this one is pretty good on the auction.

So my question, for Phil and the other doublers: Imagine that you are in fourth seat with the above hand and auction. You opt for spades, not hearts here, right? Second question, how many spades?

As I say, I am finding this interesting and useful.

This may be masterminding, but I feel like I am very close to a 3s call on the first round with your hand. With both opponents making weak bids, I want P to know that I have a definite preference as to strain . . . my cards are working. The small clubs are troubling (I wish at least one were a diamond). But I think I am coming in.

[whereagles]

Zelandakh, on 2014-July-29, 09:32, said:

I thought it did show the flexible hand type - what do you think is standard if not this?

well, the GOSH I suppose

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:03, said:

well, the GOSH I suppose

That double + bid shows a GOSH after a preempt is a misconception based on the ordinary one level takeout double everyone learns as a beginner. We should be past that in the I/A forum I think.

[whereagles]

I wouldn't be so sure.. In fact, I'm willing to bet most people play it as a GOSH by default.

I prefer flexible hand though.

[kenberg]

biggerclub, on 2014-July-29, 10:09, said:

This may be masterminding, but I feel like I am very close to a 3s call on the first round with your hand. With both opponents making weak bids, I want P to know that I have a definite preference as to strain . . . my cards are working. The small clubs are troubling (I wish at least one were a diamond). But I think I am coming in.

I agree that it is tempting. When the auction starts at 2♦ by the opponents, there will always be some guesswork. Actually most auctions involve some guesswork, at least with me. So sure, you might end in 4♠ here. As long as partner doesn't go off the deep end and try for a slam after you come in over 2♦-X-3♦ on the first round.I don't think it is crazy to bid 3♠ there. not at all.

[MrAce]

1- I start double, For the same reasons Phil King explained.
2- if pd bids 2h I am not stopping before game vs his xxxx hearts and out even though he may occasionally hold only 3. If he bids 2sp I will raise it to 3, if he lebens via 2nt I will bid 3h, if he bids encouraging 3cl I will bid 3h which is forcing obviously. Again not stopping shy of game.