[Liversidge]

We have started using the Jacoby 2NT. I held this hand.

S AQ7
H J93
D J954
C A97

What should my response be now that we have given up the natural 2NT response?

[mikeh]

Liversidge, on 2014-July-18, 23:36, said:

We have started using the Jacoby 2NT. I held this hand.

S AQ7
H J93
D J954
C A97

What should my response be now that we have given up the natural 2NT response?

what did partner open?

If 1M, my recommendation with this flat 12 is 1N (so long as it is forcing 1 round), intending to bid 4M next time, but play 3N if he bids 2N.

This is not a good hand, btw. 4333 hands should not be looked at with enthusiasm, and J's are bad news. If one is playing light opening bids, this isn't a game force, and at mps, it might be right to just invite, but I like Aces so I would gf (1N isn't a gf, but my next bid will likely be game). If 1N is not a force, then the choices are 2♣ or 2♦, and my vote is 2♣. Clubs are often fudged, and Jxxx in diamonds just isn't appealing and will cause partner to mis-evaluate, expecting you to have values in diamonds.

[Liversidge]

mikeh, on 2014-July-18, 23:45, said:

what did partner open?

If 1M, my recommendation with this flat 12 is 1N (so long as it is forcing 1 round), intending to bid 4M next time, but play 3N if he bids 2N.

This is not a good hand, btw. 4333 hands should not be looked at with enthusiasm, and J's are bad news. If one is playing light opening bids, this isn't a game force, and at mps, it might be right to just invite, but I like Aces so I would gf (1N isn't a gf, but my next bid will likely be game). If 1N is not a force, then the choices are 2♣ or 2♦, and my vote is 2♣. Clubs are often fudged, and Jxxx in diamonds just isn't appealing and will cause partner to mis-evaluate, expecting you to have values in diamonds.

Sorry Mikeh, I should have said partner opened 1H. We play Acol and weak NT and 1NT is not forcing, It can be a 'dustbin' bid, 6-10 HCP unbalanced. So 2C it is. I can then show 2NT next round.

[wank]

Liversidge, on 2014-July-18, 23:55, said:

Sorry Mikeh, I should have said partner opened 1H. We play Acol and weak NT and 1NT is not forcing, It can be a 'dustbin' bid, 6-10 HCP unbalanced. So 2C it is. I can then show 2NT next round.

rhe first reply you received assumed you were playing some sort of 5 card major system and strong NT. best to state you're playing acol, presumably with a weak NT, in the original post. everyone will assume you're playing standard american or 2/1 game force if you don't specify it. in case you haven't realised yet, acol is very much a minority system globally, despite its near 100% use in places like UK.

no i wouldn't bid 2c playing acol - if partner raises clubs you'll be in trouble (you will either have to guess 3NT which is an overbid and runs the risk of missing a much better 4H contract or you can bid 3H which risks end playing partner if he's only got 4 hearts). best to bid 2d then at least you can survive a raise.

[helene_t]

It is good to know what it would mean if opener raises your minor suit:
1♥-2♦
3♦

Does opener have:
- 15-16 balanced with 4 hearts and 4 diamonds?
- 11-14 with 5 hearts and 4+ diamonds?
- could be either?

Next question:
1♥-2♦
3♦-3♥

Does responder have:
- 10-11 points with 3 hearts, i.e. nonforcing?
- 12+ with three hearts, choice of game (in case opener has only 4), possibly slam interest?

If you play a style in which opener is supposed to rebid a 5-card major and only raises with balanced hands (and, consequently, the second auction is forcing), you might want to respond 2♣ because you can survive a raise and you might be able show an invite at a safer level, since it could go:
1♥-2♣
2♦-2♥
But that style is not so common in my experience. Most people would raise with 5 hearts and 4 of responder's minor, unless maybe if the hearts are very strong. And rebid 2NT with most (if not all) balanced 15-counts, even with 4-card support. If that it your style you have to bid 2♦, as Wank explains.

[kenrexford]

If partner opens 1H, and if you intend to force game, isn't 3NT the standout response? I'm surprised that this is not even mentioned as an option.

[hrothgar]

Liversidge, on 2014-July-18, 23:36, said:

We have started using the Jacoby 2NT. I held this hand.

S AQ7
H J93
D J954
C A97

What should my response be now that we have given up the natural 2NT response?

In an Acol context, I'd be strongly tempted just to bid 3NT
Even if partner has a five card heart suit, you'll probably play as well in NT as in a suit.

[rmnka447]

3 NT will probably work out a decent percentage of the time, but be prepared to accept bad results when the 3 NT bid handcuffs opener from bidding further. If partner holds something like

♠ Kx
♥ KQxxx
♦ KQxx
♣ xx,

it's difficult to make a move over 3 NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Playing Acol, I would bid 2D.

I was taught, that you never make a natural 2NT response to a 1 level suit
opening.
I dont mind 2C instead of 2D, it gives you the most room.

If partner raises your minor, it depends what you open with 4m and 4M, we
used to open the minor, but this has changed.
If you open the major bid 3H, accepting game, showing 3card support, otherwise
you know partner has 5+ hears, so bid 3H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[biggerclub]

I don't really like Jacoby with 4 card MAJ (I played a fair amount of forcing club, canape).

Using the methods you have described, you must bid 2min here and I would choose 2♦ although 2♣has some arguments in its favor.

3NT is also a fair choice, provided that you never do it with more or less than three card support and partner knows this (In other words, partner with an unbalanced hand of any sort bids 4♥ and passes otherwise). Even a crappy 12 opposite 12 will produce more than its share of 3NT games (as pointed out by Kaplan-Sheinwold centuries ago).

[PhilKing]

rmnka447, on 2014-July-19, 10:23, said:

3 NT will probably work out a decent percentage of the time, but be prepared to accept bad results when the 3 NT bid handcuffs opener from bidding further. If partner holds something like

♠ Kx
♥ KQxxx
♦ KQxx
♣ xx,

it's difficult to make a move over 3 NT.

It's actually standard in Acol for 3NT to promise 3343 or 3334 12+ to 15-, so pard has an easy removal.

3NT is a slight overbid in that we have a bad twelve, but I prefer it to 2♦ because every time we reach game, we have leaked less information, and there is no sensible partscore auction in Acol once we exclude a 2NT response.

[Cyberyeti]

You can pretty much guarantee due to the weak NT(depending which is your agreed suit to open with 4441s, it's a 100% guarantee for us) that partner has either 5+♥ or 15+ points.

Therefore you will have somewhere sensible to play, bid 2♦ and if partner bids 2♥/2N/3♦, bid 3♥.

I prefer this to 3N as I know I don't want to be anywhere near game opposite some of the things we open, but if your openings are sounder than mine it may be fine.

[steve2005]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-July-20, 01:23, said:

You can pretty much guarantee due to the weak NT(depending which is your agreed suit to open with 4441s, it's a 100% guarantee for us) that partner has either 5+♥ or 15+ points.

Therefore you will have somewhere sensible to play, bid 2♦ and if partner bids 2♥/2N/3♦, bid 3♥.

I prefer this to 3N as I know I don't want to be anywhere near game opposite some of the things we open, but if your openings are sounder than mine it may be fine.

I agree with this. Acol can have some pretty weak 1♥ openings, especially if playing strong 2's which isn't stated.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-July-20, 01:23, said:

You can pretty much guarantee due to the weak NT(depending which is your agreed suit to open with 4441s, it's a 100% guarantee for us) that partner has either 5+♥ or 15+ points.

Therefore you will have somewhere sensible to play, bid 2♦ and if partner bids 2♥/2N/3♦, bid 3♥.

I prefer this to 3N as I know I don't want to be anywhere near game opposite some of the things we open, but if your openings are sounder than mine it may be fine.

I think 2♦ then 3♥ (over 2♥) is right on values, but wrong on a more practical level.

Partner will assume a singleton or void diamond is a bad holding and Qxx or Kxx is good, when the opposite is true, so you will get to game when it is bad and partscore when game is excellent.

And 3♥ over 2NT is wrong for a more obvious reason.

[helene_t]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-19, 18:04, said:

It's actually standard in Acol for 3NT to promise 3343 or 3334 12+ to 15-, so pard has an easy removal.

3NT is a slight overbid in that we have a bad twelve, but I prefer it to 2♦ because every time we reach game, we have leaked less information, and there is no sensible partscore auction in Acol once we exclude a 2NT response.

If 3NT is specifically 33(43) it seems to me that we leak quite a lot of information. Of course if partner removes it to 4♥, declarer's hand wont have leaked much.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-20, 11:12, said:

And 3♥ over 2NT is wrong for a more obvious reason.

OK I forgot, we play 2N as FG not necessarily balanced which is not standard, 3N is better if 2N is always balanced, I need to bid 3♥ rather than 3N as I categorically deny 3♥ by bidding 3N.

Also while bidding like this will cause partner to overvalue ♦Hxx, it will correctly get him to uprate H10x so it's not all bad.

[AreyHakaal]

Well if playing standard we do not play 1NT response forcing.I can not give much value to that DJ. The losing trick count is 9. and as we play the short and long suit tries I will respond 2 hearts,since there is nothing exciting in this 4333 hand.If partner shows a singleton diamond if he has 6 losers then I will bid 4 Hearts as I have 3 cover cards in the remaining 3 suits.I remember a similar hand where partner had opened one heart on xxx,AKQXx,Qxx,Qx .Our opponents playing the 2 NT natural response played in 3NT and made the obvious 7 tricks We played in 2 Hearts and made 8 tricks.We gained 7 IMP.It is my firm belief that with a flat 4333 and 8 card fit one must use the losing trick count and not HCP.

[rmnka447]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-19, 18:04, said:

It's actually standard in Acol for 3NT to promise 3343 or 3334 12+ to 15-, so pard has an easy removal.

3NT is a slight overbid in that we have a bad twelve, but I prefer it to 2♦ because every time we reach game, we have leaked less information, and there is no sensible partscore auction in Acol once we exclude a 2NT response.

Thanks for the clarification concerning ACOL.

Prior to Jacoby 2 NT, a Standard American 2 NT response promised no more than a doubleton in opener's major and a balanced 13 or more. 3 NT was a stronger 4-3-3-3 -- 16-18.

After integrating Jacoby 2 NT, it's a matter of partnership agreement what 3 NT shows. My sense is that most Standard pairs simply shift what was the forcing flat 2 NT response to 3 NT.