[Vampyr]

nige1, on 2014-July-10, 10:35, said:

The new rule would stipulate that, when you use the stop-card, you must place it where LHO puts his bidding cards. After 10 seconds, you must remove it. If the egg-timer were available instead, The rules would instead mandate the same protocol with it.

How is the egg-timer an improvement? You can count ten seconds if you know how.

[Vampyr]

neilkaz, on 2014-July-10, 11:26, said:

+1 for getting rid of the stop card forever. I'll be playing in the regional here in about 90 minutes and can assure you that I'd enjoy the game more without a stop card. ROFL what stupidity to have to use it for routine sequences like 1NT-3NT bcuz PD used it for his routine 2♠ opening two hands prior etc etc.

Is that ten seconds really so crucial? With no stop card or stop warning, a pause of any length, or no pause, would necessarily have to be AI to second hand and his partner

You take out the card, you count ten seconds, you put it back. This prevents problems, not causes them,

[mycroft]

neilkaz, on 2014-July-10, 11:26, said:

+1 for getting rid of the stop card forever. I'll be playing in the regional here in about 90 minutes and can assure you that I'd enjoy the game more without a stop card. ROFL what stupidity to have to use it for routine sequences like 1NT-3NT bcuz PD used it for his routine 2♠ opening two hands prior etc etc.

At least three times I have had to think my entire 10 seconds after 1NT-3NT. It was nice that I always pause, STOP card or not, and partner could make the right lead (or not, as happened) without hearing an immediate call for the TD. It's even better when the opponents do pull it out because they did it for the weak 2 spades hand was two boards prior.

What's the problem with pulling it out all the time? It's no worse than pulling out any other card. And yes, I know there are those who believe that some opponents take advantage of it (and some opponents, but many fewer than these people worry about, do); I also know that there are those who will say that since there are some opponents, I want you to not use it, and get very upset when you forget and drop back into the total habit. I don't really think they are too concerned about the possible improper action, and that while they would never say it, aren't upset about the distraction that breaking such habits cause to the opponents, and what that distraction does to their bridge play.

[ArtK78]

If all players would use the STOP card for ALL skip bids and all players would hesitate for a while (about 10 seconds) after ALL skip bids then we wouldn't have the problems that we have.

Really, the use of the STOP card should be mandatory for ALL skip bids just as the skip bid warning used to be mandatory. It is the deviations from the use of the STOP card after all skip bids and the deviations from the required pause after all skip bids that cause the problems.

But I know I am tilting at windmills. Here, in Atlantic City, people cross the streets against the lights and in the middle of blocks against heavy traffic all of the time. Nothing, not even strong enforcement of jaywalking laws by the local police, seems to stop them. And I am worried about the proper use of STOP cards?

[nige1]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-10, 13:04, said:

But I know I am tilting at windmills. Here, in Atlantic City, people cross the streets against the lights and in the middle of blocks against heavy traffic all of the time. Nothing, not even strong enforcement of jaywalking laws by the local police, seems to stop them. And I am worried about the proper use of STOP cards

If most Bridge-rules (even rules about bidding boxes) were "must" rules and directors consistently penalised infraction then, rather than just fret about possible damage, victims could simply call the director, knowing that it would no longer be a pointless waste of time.

[ArtK78]

nige1, on 2014-July-10, 13:35, said:

If most Bridge-rules (even rules about bidding boxes) were "must" rules and directors consistently penalised infraction, then victims could simply call the director, knowing that it would no longer be a pointless waste of time, rather than fret about possible damage.

What bothers me most about the total lack of deference to the use of STOP cards is that so many players will act quickly when I use the STOP card. I can't even tell you how many times I have put out the STOP card - and held it in clear view for a few seconds - before making a skip bid (whether weak or strong, it doesn't matter) only to be followed by an immediate call on my left. These are not usually better players, but there are so many players out there who are not "better players" and it is clear that they are conveying information with their quick actions. The bottom line is that the ethical standard of most players is not high, and there really isn't a whole lot we can do to change that.

I have similar problems when playing tournament poker. For example, suppose a player announces a raise, but has not yet announced the size of his raise or put the chips on the table. It is not uncommon for the next player (or the next two or three players) to fold. This conveys information to the raiser, who has yet to complete his action, that he is competing with fewer remaining opponents and it may affect the amount of his raise. Trying to explain this idea to the players who folded is like talking to a wall. "I didn't have any intention of calling his raise, no matter how big it was, so what does it matter?" But it does matter to the remaining players.

[nige1]

Vampyr, on 2014-July-10, 12:20, said:

How is the egg-timer an improvement? You can count ten seconds if you know how.

Seemingly, in the UK, few opponents can count

[Mbodell]

RMB1, on 2014-July-10, 10:15, said:

Is that what the stop card is for? - to prevent insufficient bids by opponents?

Would ops be allowed/required to pause over jump bids?

Today in the ACBL you are required to pause for 10 seconds over jump bids regardless of if a stop card is used. The stop card doesn't change this at all. And the opponents aren't supposed to hold the stop card out for 10 seconds or whatever to time for you like might make sense in an alternative system.

[ArtK78]

Mbodell, on 2014-July-10, 18:15, said:

Today in the ACBL you are required to pause for 10 seconds over jump bids regardless of if a stop card is used. The stop card doesn't change this at all. And the opponents aren't supposed to hold the stop card out for 10 seconds or whatever to time for you like might make sense in an alternative system.

Of course the STOP card doesn't change this anymore than the skip bid warning changed this when bidding was verbal. The STOP card is the silent bidding equivalent of the skip bid warning.

[johnu]

Vampyr, on 2014-July-10, 12:20, said:

How is the egg-timer an improvement? You can count ten seconds if you know how.

Because you can see exactly how many seconds were remaining if a bid is made early. People's perception of time is usually pretty bad,even if they can count to 10 almost every time. If you have nothing to think of, even a couple of seconds can seem like 10 seconds. If you are furiously trying to work out hands and probabilities, you may not even notice that 30 seconds or a minute+ have passed.

Anybody up for crowd sourcing a timer with a sensor that can detect if the person who is supposed to wait 10 seconds pulls out a bidding card before the time is up, plus a mechanical arm with a flyswatter to whack their hand?

[ArtK78]

johnu, on 2014-July-11, 00:50, said:

Because you can see exactly how many seconds were remaining if a bid is made early. People's perception of time is usually pretty bad,even if they can count to 10 almost every time. If you have nothing to think of, even a couple of seconds can seem like 10 seconds. If you are furiously trying to work out hands and probabilities, you may not even notice that 30 seconds or a minute+ have passed.

Anybody up for crowd sourcing a timer with a sensor that can detect if the person who is supposed to wait 10 seconds pulls out a bidding card before the time is up, plus a mechanical arm with a flyswatter to whack their hand?

But that is exactly the point.

My understanding of the skip bid warning (and the STOP card - the bidding box equivalent to the skip bid warning) is that the next player is supposed to pause for ABOUT 10 seconds, and is not supposed to give any indication that he or she is counting off the time merely to comply with the requirements of the skip-bid warning. So, using an egg-timer would actually be against the spirit of the enforced pause rule of the skip-bid warning.

[Vampyr]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-10, 13:41, said:

I can't even tell you how many times I have put out the STOP card - and held it in clear view for a few seconds - before making a skip bid (whether weak or strong, it doesn't matter) only to be followed by an immediate call on my left.

Shouldn't you be holding the card in clear view after making the. I'd, not before?

johnu, on 2014-July-11, 00:50, said:

Because you can see exactly how many seconds were remaining if a bid is made early. People's perception of time is usually pretty bad,even if they can count to 10 almost every time. If you have nothing to think of, even a couple of seconds can seem like 10 seconds.

You sing "When I'm 64" to yourself and after 'valentine' ten seconds have elapsed.

[ArtK78]

Vampyr, on 2014-July-11, 08:24, said:

Shouldn't you be holding the card in clear view after making the. I'd, not before?

I want to let LHO know that I am about to make a skip bid before I make the bid, so he or she is prepared for it. I would rather not catch LHO unaware.

[Vampyr]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-11, 08:44, said:

I want to let LHO know that I am about to make a skip bid before I make the bid, so he or she is prepared for it. I would rather not catch LHO unaware.

Well, it is certainly correct to take the Stop Card out of the box before making your bid.

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2014-July-10, 09:14, said:

How would this work when people bid while one is actually holding the Stop card under their nose? I often contemplate holding it directly over RHO's bidding box, but I don't want to insult playes who know their obligations.

It would work very well if this was given as the procedure to be adopted. But rather than wafting around their noses, why not place your stop card right in front of them where they place their bids, leave it there, make your bid, then take it away after 10 seconds ? If this was the stated method of use I believe it would "stop" any problems.

[mycroft]

Vampyr, on 2014-July-11, 08:24, said:

You sing "When I'm 64" to yourself and after 'valentine' ten seconds have elapsed.

I'm guessing most of my opponents went to that one Husker Du concert...

[blackshoe]

nige1, on 2014-July-09, 19:33, said:

Even in the UK (where we have more sensible bidding-box rules), some players fail to use the STOP-card or take it away prematurely.

Occasionally, there are other problems. In a national multiple-teams competition, The first round of the auction was the same at several tables:
(1♥) 4♠ (5♥) Pass
At our table, I used the STOP card before my jump to 4♠ and my LHO used the STOP card before his (non-jump) 5♥ bid. At other tables opener just bid 6♥. At our table, opener now made a try, and responder bid the grand. We called the director. When the director arrived, RHO said I accused him of cheating (I don't accuse anybody of cheating). The director admonished me and left. 7♥ rolled in

IMO bidding-box rules should be the same everywhere and be included in the law-book. Furthermore...

A ten-second egg-timer should replace the stop-card. After you make a jump-bid, you must turn over the egg-timer to start it. (Optionally, as a courtesy, you might use it over any of your bids that are likely to cause LHO a problem -- not just jumps). Your LHO must wait for the sand to run through before making his bid.

Some people still play bridge without bidding boxes. Some bidding boxes are incomplete. Putting a bidding box regulation in the laws won't help those folks.

I would have been very unhappy with that director — and after the round (or after the game if necessary) I would have told him so. I would have told him so at the time he "admonished" me, but apparently that option was not available.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2014-July-11, 15:09, said:

Some people still play bridge without bidding boxes. Some bidding boxes are incomplete. Putting a bidding box regulation in the laws won't help those folks.

Those who say they want regulations, system restrictions, even bidding systems standardised worldwide would soon change their tune if the standard adopted was not their own regulations etc.

[nige1]

blackshoe, on 2014-July-11, 15:09, said:

Some people still play bridge without bidding boxes. Some bidding boxes are incomplete. Putting a bidding box regulation in the laws won't help those folks.

I agree that inappropriate rules won't help, whether they be regulations or laws. The suggested new rules are for normal use with bidding-boxes. Different rules might be appropriate for different circumstances (e.g. screens, written-bidding, and so on).

blackshoe, on 2014-July-11, 15:09, said:

I would have been very unhappy with that director — and after the round (or after the game if necessary) I would have told him so. I would have told him so at the time he "admonished" me, but apparently that option was not available.

I don't argue with directors. When others do so, it rarely accomplishes anything. I expressed my concerns to our team-captain. He sympathised but took the matter no further.

[nige1]

ArtK78, on 2014-July-11, 06:53, said:

My understanding of the skip bid warning (and the STOP card - the bidding box equivalent to the skip bid warning) is that the next player is supposed to pause for ABOUT 10 seconds, and is not supposed to give any indication that he or she is counting off the time merely to comply with the requirements of the skip-bid warning. So, using an egg-timer would actually be against the spirit of the enforced pause rule of the skip-bid warning.

I don't agree with ArtK78's argument. It's hard to estimate time, when you have to think about what to call. My suggestions are based on the (superior) UK regulation. Here, it's the jump-bidder, who's responsible for the stop-duration. This allows LHO to concentrate on his call, without distraction.