[lesh]

So far so good. People looking at Bidding Problem 1 noticed that they are actually the same hand

So for those of you who decide to pass what are you doing over partner 5♥ or DBL and correcting 5♦ to 5♥

Have a look at Problem 1 it is an interesting board indeed

[nige1]

 the hog, on 2014-June-16, 23:21, said:

Nigel, for a player who has been around as long as you have, I am totally amazed that you are asking this as a serious question. If I do not have the K of S, it means that one of 3 other players has it. If opener, it means that opener is probably lacking a card elsewhere. If partner, it means that the K is almost certainly a stopper, if rho it means that he is short in S as he has not pre empted further. This latter point is good if we end up in a 3NT contract.
The stiff K of S in my hand may or may not be useless. I don't know. I do know that if pd has it it is a far better card than my holding it. Does that help you? I am serious when I say that I am amazed at your comment.

Unconvinced. I understand that honours in short suits are better for defence than attack but If I don't hold ♠K, then an opponent is more likely to hold it than partner.

[the hog]

 nige1, on 2014-June-17, 10:50, said:

Unconvinced. I understand that honours in short suits are better for defence than attack but If I don't hold ♠K, then an opponent is more likely to hold it than partner.

Have you missed the point? If opener holds it then he won't have a corresponding hon card elsewhere. Eg an opener probably won't open AKxxxx and an outside K with a 2 bid. If rho holds it he has not raised S.

Secondly if pd holds it, you know pd does not have a bal 16-18 - no 2NT overcall, but it may/will be useful in a NT contract or in defence.

[nige1]

 the hog, on 2014-June-17, 13:01, said:

Have you missed the point? If opener holds it then he won't have a corresponding hon card elsewhere. Eg an opener probably won't open AKxxxx and an outside K with a 2 bid. If rho holds it he has not raised S. Secondly if pd holds it, you know pd does not have a bal 16-18 - no 2NT overcall, but it may/will be useful in a NT contract or in defence.

Still struggling to follow your logic. Your RHO dealt and opened 2♠. Neither LHO nor partner called out of turn.

[gszes]

 lesh, on 2014-June-17, 07:58, said:

So far so good. People looking at Bidding Problem 1 noticed that they are actually the same hand

So for those of you who decide to pass what are you doing over partner 5♥ or DBL and correcting 5♦ to 5♥

Have a look at Problem 1 it is an interesting board indeed

If p had a hand worth ten+ tricks and a great heart suit they would have chosen 4n
rather and converted your m bid to 5h rather than a direct 5H overcall which should
not be as good. Since you know from the bidding p rates their hand as worth less than
10 tricks you should be happy to pass and p will surely be grateful you have a decent
dummy for them. Moving the spade K to either minor would convince me to bid 6h (not to
hearts though since p probably has so many hearts the Q and maybe even the K are useless)
I would also bid 6 if the club QJ were the ace instead. Small changes it may seem but
partner is guessing vul at a high level and we do not want to get them slaughtered when
the opps can set slam 2 or 3 tricks off the top (ouch). Bidding slam with the current hand
is trying to hit too small of a target and who knows lho might yet still x 5h:))))))))))))

[mikeh]

 gszes, on 2014-June-23, 08:36, said:

If p had a hand worth ten+ tricks and a great heart suit they would have chosen 4n
rather and converted your m bid to 5h rather than a direct 5H overcall which should
not be as good. Since you know from the bidding p rates their hand as worth less than
10 tricks you should be happy to pass and p will surely be grateful you have a decent
dummy for them. Moving the spade K to either minor would convince me to bid 6h (not to
hearts though since p probably has so many hearts the Q and maybe even the K are useless)
I would also bid 6 if the club QJ were the ace instead. Small changes it may seem but
partner is guessing vul at a high level and we do not want to get them slaughtered when
the opps can set slam 2 or 3 tricks off the top (ouch). Bidding slam with the current hand
is trying to hit too small of a target and who knows lho might yet still x 5h:))))))))))))

The flaw in your argument is that 4N is usually played as a 2-suited takeout. Everything works well if partner bids 5♣ because with the reds you'd bid 5♦ and thus 5♥ could be natural. However, if partner is, for example, 3=3=4=3, he may well bid 5♦, since he is as happy in hearts as in clubs and happiest in diamonds if you hold that suit. Now 5♥ by you shows hearts and clubs.

You cannot assign a meaning to your 4N call just because on this hand you'd like it to have that meaning...not unless you are playing 'adjective bridge'.

[dake50]

I'm evaluating this hand at 14.
And expect on average to have game with partner.


edit: leaping Michaels 4D.

[gszes]

 mikeh, on 2014-June-23, 14:20, said:

The flaw in your argument is that 4N is usually played as a 2-suited takeout. Everything works well if partner bids 5♣ because with the reds you'd bid 5♦ and thus 5♥ could be natural. However, if partner is, for example, 3=3=4=3, he may well bid 5♦, since he is as happy in hearts as in clubs and happiest in diamonds if you hold that suit. Now 5♥ by you shows hearts and clubs.

You cannot assign a meaning to your 4N call just because on this hand you'd like it to have that meaning...not unless you are playing 'adjective bridge'.

I understand that you are saying 4n does not automatically have the meaning I assign to it just because I have an idea and
think the rest of the world will automatically understand it----that is why I tried to spell out the meaning of all of the
"meanings" to try and provide a wider alternative/utility to a hand where our choices are pretty darn limited due to the
preempt-------If you like the idea overall it may become something you like to use who knows?

I almost always like your arguments but I hope you would not really consider bidding 5d with such a holding since you might be arbitrarily creating extra bidding problems by bypassing 5c that might lead to further bidding problems in the small/grand
slam arena when p assumes you are short in clubs since there is an extremely good chance p might find a 63 club fit better
than a 53 heart fit (for ex). I will admit though that if I were 2443 I would probably bid 5d since I would be assured of
at least a 9 card 54 fit no matter what p was holding and I doubt that my p would be overly upset with any 56 hand they might
happen to hold even if they managed to get 1 level too high (by bidding 6h for ex and losing a club) preempts work.

Since we are at unfavorable (original post for this problem) we should be bidding to make. It makes some sense to keep the dual meaning of 4n available at other vulnerabilities when sacrificing is probably the main reason for bidding. At those colors I will be happier to extend the range of x in order to cater to the preemptive probabilities but not at unfavorable.

One has to decide which has more utility--a bid that might force partner to bid a suit they have already bypassed (and in theory short) one level higher or a bid that creates a wider array of options for your best scoring contract within the limited space provided. My idea is that most of this is guesswork anyway so saying my hand is worth specifically 11 tricks when I am 55 and never worth anything more (especially in light of the fact that we now "know" p will be able to ruff club losers) does not seem to make sense. This should mean the 5h bid (after 4n) should be available after both 5c and 5d as a 10/11 trick 1 suited hand since once p bypasses 5c any 55 hand we held would almost surely improve significantly either due to
the ability to ruff club losers and/or the increased probability of a large heart fit and become "slammish".

[gergana85]

 MrAce, on 2014-June-15, 11:53, said:

3♦

The question is incorrect. It is not clear what means opening 2♠. Some people assume that this bid shows 6-10 HCP without 4 hearts, while others assume that 2♠shows two suited hand with spades and minor.
There is no problem. Obviously, you cannot dream to play a game. The rising 3♦ is not good. Probability to find a support in diamonds is not greater than 33% and should be played on the third level with a weak suit (opening 2♠ shows that the predominant strength is in the spades). Communications between the two hands are a problem too. A reply 3♥ creates even bigger problems. For these reasons you should to pass. To win 8 tricks in spades is much more likely than nine tricks in diamonds or hearts.

[gergana85]

 Fluffy, on 2014-June-16, 06:43, said:

Bidding 5♥ looks obvious

Maybe 5♣ is better?! Or 6♠?

[helene_t]

 the hog, on 2014-June-16, 23:21, said:

If I do not have the K of S, it means that one of 3 other players has it. If opener, it means that opener is probably lacking a card elsewhere. If partner, it means that the K is almost certainly a stopper, if rho it means that he is short in S as he has not pre empted further. This latter point is good if we end up in a 3NT contract.

If we want to decide if it is right to bid on this hand, it is mostly about whether we are happy for p to make bid after our overcall. So in that context it isn't a good argument that not having ♠K means that p might have it, because p will know to valuate that card anyway if he has it.

As for the argument that W is likely to be short in spades if he has the king: well, he hasn't passed yet, and besides, if he has ♠Kx we are in troubles in 3NT. While if we hold ♠K, partner's Qx is a complementary stopper (although I admit that we probably won't bid 3NT).

[ArtK78]

 gergana85, on 2014-June-25, 10:22, said:

The question is incorrect. It is not clear what means opening 2♠. Some people assume that this bid shows 6-10 HCP without 4 hearts, while others assume that 2♠shows two suited hand with spades and minor.
There is no problem. Obviously, you cannot dream to play a game. The rising 3♦ is not good. Probability to find a support in diamonds is not greater than 33% and should be played on the third level with a weak suit (opening 2♠ shows that the predominant strength is in the spades). Communications between the two hands are a problem too. A reply 3♥ creates even bigger problems. For these reasons you should to pass. To win 8 tricks in spades is much more likely than nine tricks in diamonds or hearts.

The 2♠ opening was defined in the OP as weak - 5+ cards. In fact, the definition at the table was weak, 5+ cards, 3-9 HCP.