[straube]

Wondering if anyone has a NT relay structure they like. I was thinking...

1N-2C, 2D
..........2H-relays

1N-2C, 2S
..........3C-relays
...............3D-4C
...............3H-4D
...............3S-5S
...............3N-4S333

but stumped what to do for hearts because I like responder's 2S and 2N rebids to be GI.

[hrothgar]

This assumes that you aren't opening 5422s and 6322 with 1NT

2C = relay

2D = 4+ Hearts
2H = 4+ Spades and 0-3 Hearts
2S = any 4333
2N = 5332 with long clubs
3C = 4432 with both minors
3D = 2=3=5=2 shape
3H = 3=2=5=2 shape
3S = 3=3=5=2 shape

[Free]

straube, on 2014-May-01, 10:39, said:

Wondering if anyone has a NT relay structure they like.

Nope, because you shouldn't relay the balanced hand. I have several NT relay structures, but they're not nearly as efficient/useful as responder describing his hand.

[straube]

Free, on 2014-May-01, 11:57, said:

Nope, because you shouldn't relay the balanced hand. I have several NT relay structures, but they're not nearly as efficient/useful as responder describing his hand.

But is there any wiggle room? I've a complicated NT system for describing unbalanced shapes, but it uses 2C stayman. It's a bit frustrating in that

1N-2C, 2D is perfectly set up for relays (if you don't mind losing garbage stayman which I don't)

but

1N-2C, 2M scuttles you.

I know Adam uses 1N-2C, 2M-3C to ask for a side suit, but I don't think he turns it to an all-out relay. Plus space is tight after 1N-2C, 2M-3C if partner can have a side major or minor or 4333 or 4M5m22 etc

One thought is for

1N-2C, 2N-both majors, weak

2N-2C, 3C-both majors, strong

but this obviously loses out when responder has the club takeout hand.

[phoenix214]

I can give you the version which most Latvians use called full Stayman. Basically after a Stayman response +2 is a relay:
After 2♦-2♠:
2NT-No 5m
3♣ asks
3♦ 3343
3♥ 3244
3♠ 2344
3NT 3334
3♣-5♣ - 3♦ asks dubleton
3♦/3♥/3♠ -5♦ and respective dubleton
After 2♥-2NT
3♣ - 4♣(Can have 4414 hands)
3♦ - 4♦
3♥ - 3433
3♠ -4♠ low dupleton
3NT -4 ♠ high dupleton
After 2♠-3♣
3♦ - 4♦
3♥ - 4♣ low dupleton
3♠ - 4333
3NT - 4♣ high dupleton.
After this - 4♦ Gamestoper and ususal stuff
Although id prefer using something like Keri or Heeman, which uses 2♣ as puppet to 2♦ and almost never is asking shape

Side note:After 1NT-2♣, 2♥-2♠ is inv with 4♠. Bal invites w/o 4M go through 2♠

[awm]

It seems like you could use 2D as either 0 or 2 majors. Then 2M would be the only major and you could use 3C to relay (assuming no 5M possible). Then over 2D you can use 2H relay and fit everything. If responder invites with 2nt over 2d and opener has both majors he can bid 3c to request a transfer to responders 4M.

You lose on the weak responder hands (garbage stayman?) and you need alternate sequences for openers 5M-332.

[straube]

phoenix214, on 2014-May-01, 16:31, said:

I can give you the version which most Latvians use called full Stayman. Basically after a Stayman response +2 is a relay:
After 2♦-2♠:
2NT-No 5m
3♣ asks
3♦ 3343
3♥ 3244
3♠ 2344
3NT 3334
3♣-5♣ - 3♦ asks dubleton
3♦/3♥/3♠ -5♦ and respective dubleton
After 2♥-2NT
3♣ - 4♣(Can have 4414 hands)
3♦ - 4♦
3♥ - 3433
3♠ -4♠ low dupleton
3NT -4 ♠ high dupleton
After 2♠-3♣
3♦ - 4♦
3♥ - 4♣ low dupleton
3♠ - 4333
3NT - 4♣ high dupleton.
After this - 4♦ Gamestoper and ususal stuff
Although id prefer using something like Keri or Heeman, which uses 2♣ as puppet to 2♦ and almost never is asking shape

Side note:After 1NT-2♣, 2♥-2♠ is inv with 4♠. Bal invites w/o 4M go through 2♠

Well, that gives me an idea.

After 1N-2C, 2S-3C asks

3D-4C
.....3H-asks doubleton
3H-5S or 4333
.....3S-asks
..........3N-4333
..........4C-5233
..........etc-
3S-4243 or 4252
3N-4342

After 1N-2C, 2D-2H pretty easy

2S-4m4m
2N-5C332
3C-4m333
3D-2353
3H-3253
3S-3352

After 1N-2C, 2H-3C

3D-4C
.....3H-asks
3H-4333 or 5H332
.....3S-asks
3S-2443 or 2452
3N-3442
4C-4423
4D-4432

[straube]

awm, on 2014-May-01, 18:50, said:

It seems like you could use 2D as either 0 or 2 majors. Then 2M would be the only major and you could use 3C to relay (assuming no 5M possible). Then over 2D you can use 2H relay and fit everything. If responder invites with 2nt over 2d and opener has both majors he can bid 3c to request a transfer to responders 4M.

You lose on the weak responder hands (garbage stayman?) and you need alternate sequences for openers 5M-332.

Sounds like 1C-1D as good or bad hand....and we know that would never work.

I think a small downside is that responder can't splinter in support of a major, but this seems like a pretty small downside. I'm using jumps for most 3-suited hands anyway. Like 1N-3H for 4144 or 31(54) so the only splinters left are something like 4153.

Clever idea. What do you think of my latest and do you think it's a problem spilling the 4M4M and the 5M332s over to the 4-level? Obviously these are slam invitational hands I'm considering. Normal game stuff is handled by Puppet Stayman (2N or 3C response)

[Siegmund]

I tried 2C asking for hearts and 2D asking for spades, rather than Stayman, as a thought experiment once, and used 1N-2C-2red-2S as relays for shape. I don't remember it being hard to fit things in -- just a bit weird that the shape relay had to show how many spades the NT bidder had even though there was another bid to find that out first.

I did not also have relays available after 1NT-2D. I just used the one extra step after 2C vs. 2D to relay. That meant that 1N-2C-2D-2N+ and 1N-2D-2H-2N+ could again have the same meanings, and ease the memory burden a bit.

It was quite a disheartening experience for me, and discouraged me from using relays in any context (though theoretically I think they can still have their place after some other opening bids.)

[deannz]

Hi

If you use 1NT : 2NT as invitational with hearts and 1N : 2S as invitational without a major (or various other hands)
1N : 2C
2S : 2N can be the relay (you cant be invitational with hearts)

Using this and 2H over a 2D reply means there is room for finding all shapes including 5332 major & 2-2-5/4 but not 6322.

Obviously you loose wriggle Stayman. With 4S/5h transfer to hearts, With 5S/4H you can bid 2S (weak) over 2D. 4-4-4-1 are the problem hands.

D/

1N : 2C
2D : 2H
2S = longest suit is clubs
2N = 4/4 minors. Relay for doublelton
3C = 5332 dmds Relay for doublelton
3D = 2-2-5-4
3H = 3-3-3-4 8+ QP
3S = 3-3-3-4 7 QP
3N = 3-3-3-4 6 QP

After 2S (clubs). Relay with 2N with same responses.

1N : 2C
2H : 2S
2N = 4 spades as wella s 4 hearts. Relay for doubleton.
3C = 5332/ Relay for doublelton
3D = 4 clubs as well as 4 hearts. Relay for doublelton
3H = 2-4-4-3
3S = 3-4-4-2
3N = 3-4-3-3

etc.

[deannz]

Hi

Sorry typo in above from 3H onwards

1N : 2C
2D : 2H
2S = longest clubs
2N = 4/4 minors
3C = 5332 with diamonds
3D = 2-2-5-4
3H = 3-3-4-3 8+ QP
3S = 3-3-4-3 7 QP
3N = 3-3-4-3 6 QP

D./

[straube]

deannz, on 2014-May-01, 21:02, said:

Hi

If you use 1NT : 2NT as invitational with hearts and 1N : 2S as invitational without a major (or various other hands)
1N : 2C
2S : 2N can be the relay (you cant be invitational with hearts)

Using this and 2H over a 2D reply means there is room for finding all shapes including 5332 major & 2-2-5/4 but not 6322.

Obviously you loose wriggle Stayman. With 4S/5h transfer to hearts, With 5S/4H you can bid 2S (weak) over 2D. 4-4-4-1 are the problem hands.

D/

1N : 2C
2D : 2H
2S = longest suit is clubs
2N = 4/4 minors. Relay for doublelton
3C = 5332 dmds Relay for doublelton
3D = 2-2-5-4
3H = 3-3-3-4 8+ QP
3S = 3-3-3-4 7 QP
3N = 3-3-3-4 6 QP

After 2S (clubs). Relay with 2N with same responses.

1N : 2C
2H : 2S
2N = 4 spades as wella s 4 hearts. Relay for doubleton.
3C = 5332/ Relay for doublelton
3D = 4 clubs as well as 4 hearts. Relay for doublelton
3H = 2-4-4-3
3S = 3-4-4-2
3N = 3-4-3-3

etc.

I hate to pay the cost of 1N-2N as GI hearts and 1N-2C, 2H-2S as GI 5+ spades. But very well organized. Do you play this or did you come up with it on the spot?

[glen]

straube, on 2014-May-01, 21:18, said:

I hate to pay the cost of 1N-2N as GI hearts ...

play opener always super accepts 1NT-2♦(transfer) with 4+♥s

[straube]

glen, on 2014-May-01, 22:01, said:

play opener always super accepts 1NT-2♦(transfer) with 4+♥s

It's a good idea, but I play 1N-2D, 2H-2S as GI with 5+ hearts (allowing me to find a 5/3 at the 3-level) and 1N-2D, 2H-2N as GF with 5H/4m so unless I give something up here I haven't the ability to separate GI 5 from 4 hearts.

[straube]

Free, on 2014-May-01, 11:57, said:

Nope, because you shouldn't relay the balanced hand. I have several NT relay structures, but they're not nearly as efficient/useful as responder describing his hand.

Frrederick's post has 3 upvotes so far so it has a lot of support, but I'd like to argue that it isn't so clear cut...and I'm a big fan of the balanced hand principle, too.

I wonder how often playing Moscito the auction goes 1C-1D, 1H-1N where responder has shown a GF balanced (or 4441) hand and opener does something other than bid 2C. I mean there is available space for opener to do something else certainly, but how often does this happen really? Are such relay breaks even published?

Yet at the point of an opening 1N, where no GF has been established and responder may have a variety of hands that want to sign off somewhere or make nf bids that invite game (and consequently can't be used to show shape in a forcing slam-exploring sort of way), most folks accept that it's all-important for responder to describe his hand but not ask. Compared to Moscito, isn't that topsy-turvy?

And this is compounded by the fact that most folks (excepting Klinger, etc) use 2C as Stayman which asks opener to subdivide his hand into three responses...the 2D response particularly being well-suited for a continuation of relays.

I mean, it's true that (in a sense) 2C Stayman can be used to "show" a major as well as "ask" a major, but not so much after 1N-2C, 2D. At this point, responder has only shown that he has a major and not which one. So does it make a lot more sense for responder to force opener to relay (1N-2C, 2D-2H asking) for responder's shape than for 1N-2C, 2D-2H to ask opener's shape? If 2H by responder asks, then we're at like +1 or so compared to standard symmetric. An almost ideal relay situation where we avoid dual captaincy and have plenty of room to explore and perhaps stay out of slam.

So if we were in a GF, we wouldn't limit opener's replies to 2C to 2D, 2H, or 2S. But we don't know and that's because 2C handles GI and perhaps club takeout hands as well as GF and slam hands.
If instead opener answers 2M, then we're preempted quite a bit more, but also for telling as well as asking. Why not consider reserving one bid to ask (I'm suggesting 3C but others have suggested 2N) and leaving the others to show?

There's still lots of ways responder can show hands with a 4-cd major in such a way as to involve opener in deciding how well the hands mesh. I use immediate jump splinters (like 1N-3H might be 3-suited short hearts) and this can handle a lot of patterns. But there's still lots of awkward hands....such as 4135 or 4153 where I might worry about partner choosing a fit in my minor suit fragment.

More important, there's lots of balanced hands. They don't have the same slam potential, but just by volume it's nice to have some better tools than Baron or Yellow Rose of Texas to bid them. Like I may have a 2353 hand and it could play better in an 8-cd fit, but finding that fit as well as whether opener has the right sort of cards is difficult if I have to start exploration at the 5-level.

I think it makes sense to try to describe unbalanced hands that can be described adequately but ask with big balanced hands along with some remainder of unbalanced hands for which we just don't have room. Compared to symmetric relay, after starting our auction with 1N, we're at least 3 steps higher.

If I remember correctly, awm uses 1N-2C, 2M-3C to ask for a second suit. Thinking that was the right idea.

[Free]

For the record, my name isn't Richard...

Anyway, I know that balanced vs balanced hands with slam potential can have benefit of relaying out opener's shape. But from the moment responder isn't balanced, it makes much more sense to describe rather than ask. Here comes the most important argument: the balanced hand can easily assess if he has wasted values in partner's shortness, the other way around takes a lot more time. With 2 balanced hands, there are no shortages to evaluate, so relaying is ok.

The comparison with MOSCITO is strange, because it seems like you're not well informed. If opener wants to describe an unbalanced hand, he should describe it immediately after 1♣-1♦. 1♥ asks, but 1♠+ shows (same scheme like responder). Only with extremely strong unbalanced hands opener should ask, but in that case he's looking for a few specific cards and the captaincy gives him this opportunity. 1♣-1♦ GF allows opener to decide between asking (always ok when balanced imo) or describing an unbalanced hand (usually a good idea imo).
Therefore the auction 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT usually means opener is balanced as well, so you have 2 balanced hands opposite each other. Relaying after this is ok (see my first paragraph). After this start, opener can choose to ask with 2♣ or to describe his own balanced hand with 2♦+ (same responses as if partner asked with 2♣). So you see, there's no way for opener to suddenly start describe an unbalanced hand after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT.
In my experience it happens quite often that captaincy changes after the 1NT call, whatever happened before, just for rightsiding purposes. You can even have auctions where the captaincy changes twice: 1♣-1♦-1NT(gives way captaincy)-2♦+(gives it back). I really hate that auction though...

If you don't care about garbage stayman and ♠ invites at 2-level, and you really want to relay, I'd suggest you use the following skeleton and fill it up further (you can even use some symmetry):
2♦ = no 5♠, no 4♥
...2♥ asks
2♥ = 4-5♥
...2♠ asks
2♠ = 5♠ (maybe even include 4♠-3-3-3 here)
...3♣ asks (or 2NT if you don't care for invites here)
This gives you plenty of space to include most of the 4441, 5422 and 6m322 hands. It also helps to get to your games quite quickly without always giving away too much information.

[straube]

Sorry about getting your name mixed up. I'm properly embarrassed.

Moscito 2005...

"With 12+ QPs (about 18+ HCP), opener bids 1H to find out responder’s shape. With 9-11 QPs (about 15-17 HCP), opener uses the bids from 1S up to show his shape."

So it's a matter of degree, but I think 18+ is quite a lot of the strong club hands so it ought to be a frequent occurrence that opener is asking of a balanced hand when holding an unbalanced hand. We've had discussions about this in the past. In any case, I could have made the same point after 1C-1D,1N where now an unbalanced responding hand is asking pattern for a balanced hand.

Thanks for the relay suggestion. So I guess after 1N-2C, 2D-2N opener can correct to 3S?

[hrothgar]

straube, on 2014-May-02, 07:32, said:

Sorry about getting your name mixed up. I'm properly embarrassed.

Moscito 2005...

"With 12+ QPs (about 18+ HCP), opener bids 1H to find out responder’s shape. With 9-11 QPs (about 15-17 HCP), opener uses the bids from 1S up to show his shape."

So it's a matter of degree, but I think 18+ is quite a lot of the strong club hands so it ought to be a frequent occurrence that opener is asking of a balanced hand when holding an unbalanced hand. We've had discussions about this in the past. In any case, I could have made the same point after 1C-1D,1N where now an unbalanced responding hand is asking pattern for a balanced hand.

Thanks for the relay suggestion. So I guess after 1N-2C, 2D-2N opener can correct to 3S?

FWIW, the version that I use suggests this for unbalanced hands.
With balanced hands, you'll ask a lot more.

Most of the hands where I am showing with a balanced pattern are 15 counts and 4333 16 counts.

[straube]

hrothgar, on 2014-May-02, 07:57, said:

FWIW, the version that I use suggests this for unbalanced hands.
With balanced hands, you'll ask a lot more.

Most of the hands where I am showing with a balanced pattern are 15 counts and 4333 16 counts.

Yeah. Found this old thread where we discussed this...

http://www.bridgebas...reverse-relays/

So does anyone like my use of 1N-2C, 2M-3C to relay (a bit high sometimes) balanced shapes? I think at a minimum we can sign off in 4N and usually ask and abort at 4N if opener has insufficient relay points.

I would think 8 QPs as a base and 10 as a maximum (14-16 NT)

I don't think I'd like to give up the GI 5+ spade hands (plus it would mess up the rest of my structure) so using
Frederick's proposal would be sweet for relays but invest a little more in them than I would like.

[Free]

straube, on 2014-May-02, 07:32, said:

Sorry about getting your name mixed up. I'm properly embarrassed.

No problem

straube, on 2014-May-02, 07:32, said:

Moscito 2005...

"With 12+ QPs (about 18+ HCP), opener bids 1H to find out responder’s shape. With 9-11 QPs (about 15-17 HCP), opener uses the bids from 1S up to show his shape."

So it's a matter of degree, but I think 18+ is quite a lot of the strong club hands so it ought to be a frequent occurrence that opener is asking of a balanced hand when holding an unbalanced hand. We've had discussions about this in the past. In any case, I could have made the same point after 1C-1D,1N where now an unbalanced responding hand is asking pattern for a balanced hand.

That version is almost a decade old and MOSCITO was evolving very rapidly at that time. In my experience I found that bidding 1NT on any "minimal" (=9-11 AKQ points) balanced hand is a poor choice. I agree with Richard that doing so should be extremely balanced and extremely minimum.

I'd even go so far to say that you shouldn't do this with 9+ AKQ points (= the minimum requirement for a 1♣ opening) and should keep 1♣-1♦-1NT for hands which don't meet the 1♣ requirements: too strong to open 11+-14 1NT but less than 9 AKQ points! The most extreme example is KQJT-KQJ-QJT-QJT, 18HCP with only 8 AKQ points. That way you don't have to open 1NT with these 15-16HCP hands and responder knows what to expect regarding strength. He might even stay out of some crappy games after the initial GF response (which is based on AKQ points only).

I've had a couple of those and sometimes it got ugly: missing game after opening 1NT with 2 HCP fewer, bidding game without adequate AKQ points, partner zooming because he had extra AKQ points ending up too high,...

straube, on 2014-May-02, 07:32, said:

Thanks for the relay suggestion. So I guess after 1N-2C, 2D-2N opener can correct to 3S?

Not really because responder might have 4♥s. However, after 1NT-2♣-2♦ you could use 2♠ and 2NT to differentiate between 4♠ or not (and even stay at 2-level if you use 2♠ for this!)