[rhm]

nick jacob, on 2014-April-29, 04:46, said:

Bidding 2S just feels like playing solitaire. You have worked out in your mind what is percentage, double-dummy, and are not consulting partner on his opinion. This may involve missing game or playing the wrong partscore, and for what? Fear that 2NT/3D/3S is too high? If partner could bid 2NT I would be delighted to put this dummy down.

You misdescribe what I said.
1) I said previously that a second double is in principle more descriptive than 2♠, but that is unlikely to be helpful here and it has its own perils. East did not choose a second double since this was a new partnership with no agreements.
2) 2♠ is not solitaire. After partner's non jump 1♠ bid and everyone is bidding, a spade partial remains by far the most likely par contract.
2♠ is practical and simply trades extra HCP strength for poor distribution. No fourth spade, no singleton club and little in opponents suits, which makes notrumps an unlikely alternative.
It pays to be conservative with such holdings at matchpoints.
I readily admit I would miss 4♠ opposite ♠JTxxx, ♥Kxx ♦Qxx ♣xx, but to have a lot of company.
If over 2♠, opponents compete to 3♣ East has an ideal matchpoint double. This can hardly show a trump stack after a takeout double and a raise to 2♠.
3) If partner bids 2NT over a second double, you want to play 2NT/3D/3S?
What's the point?
That's what I meant when I claimed a second double has its own perils.
At matchpoints I much prefer to play 2♠ and remain convinced that 2♠ has a higher matchpoint expectancy than the alternate contracts you are "delighted" with.
I am pretty sure that looking for a different strain after partner bid 1♠ voluntarily is more likely to get you to the wrong part-score not to a better one and it will sometimes get you too high.
There is little mileage in declaring 2NT when one opponent has shown opening strength with a long suit.
Granted, we could have more trumps in a diamond partial than spades. But even if this is the case this does not mean you will score better in diamonds.
For diamonds to score better you need to bet to get at least two tricks more in a diamond partial. I bet against that outcome.
The potential 4-3 spade fit looks good to me, but then it would not occur to me to bid 1♠ on your second example.

Rainer Herrmann

[winkle]

I think if east bids 2S he is masterminding. If we have the values for game and we're missing the HK it's not going to be off side.

IMO if there is downgrading to be done, it should be done by west who has a poorly placed CK. Over the X my methods allow me to bid 2 non-forcing spades by west, showing 5 spades, some values, non-forcing, so that works pretty well here. I know too much to comment on what happens after that, but that's how my auction should start.

[rhm]

winkle, on 2014-April-29, 06:33, said:

IMO if there is downgrading to be done, it should be done by west who has a poorly placed CK. Over the X my methods allow me to bid 2 non-forcing spades by west, showing 5 spades, some values, non-forcing, so that works pretty well here. I know too much to comment on what happens after that, but that's how my auction should start.

If you think 2♠ by West shows 5 spades you are missing the point.

West 2♠ says that West is minimum and not interested in game.
What else is West supposed to bid with ♠AJxx ♥Jxx ♦xxx ♣xxx ?

West actual hand ♠J9832 ♥Q6 ♦Q93 ♣KT6 is simply too strong for 2♠ and not suitable for 3♠, but he is close to maximum for his previous bid.
In a bidding panel a vast majority of experts would choose 2NT over a second double with some bidding 3NT straight away.
This would get you to a good 3NT opposite ♠ATx ♥Axx ♦AKJxx ♣Qx

Rainer Herrmann

[winkle]

rhm, on 2014-April-29, 07:34, said:

If you think 2♠ by West shows 5 spades you are missing the point.

West 2♠ says that West is minimum and not interested in game.
What else is West supposed to bid with ♠AJxx ♥Jxx ♦xxx ♣xxx ?

West actual hand ♠J9832 ♥Q6 ♦Q93 ♣KT6 is simply too strong for 2♠ and not suitable for 3♠, but he is close to maximum for his previous bid.
In a bidding panel a vast majority of experts would choose 2NT over a second double with some bidding 3NT straight away.
This would get you to a good 3NT opposite ♠ATx ♥Axx ♦AKJxx ♣Qx

Rainer Herrmann

I said *my* methods, not yours or someone else's. In any case I misspoke. 2S does not show five spades in my methods but it does show extra values and is non-forcing. To me east's double is automatic, but the continuations after that are judgement calls.

[Fluffy]

WEst could pick between 1♠ or 2♠, I Can live with both, but I Would rather pick 2♠.

Bidding 2♠ with 3 cards is ridicoulous, you have a bid to show extras with 3 cards, instead showing 4 cards and no extras is ludicrous.