[NicebutDim]

You pick up this hand:
♠ A K Q J
♥ A K Q 8 4
♦ K 8
♣ Q 4
Playing a natural bidding system, how do you plan to bid it?

[hrothgar]

I hate opening 2♣ with two suited hands. This time, I need to

1. With a prime 24 count, there is too much chance that the hand with get passed out in 1♥
2. Partner will almost certainly bid 2D waiting over my 2♣ opening. I'll be able to show hearts at the two level and then show spades.
3. If partner bids 2N or 3m, we're going to slam

Expected auction

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♥

Maybe

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 3N
4N

[billw55]

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2♣. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.

[kenrexford]

 billw55, on 2014-April-18, 09:53, said:

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2♣. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.

Kind of dumb out of context, I agree.

[whereagles]

Agree with Richard/hrothgar, except that I'm quite comfortable with the 2♣ opener.

[NicebutDim]

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.
If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?

[ArtK78]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-18, 12:18, said:

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.
If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?

If opener's rebid after 2♣-2♦ is 2♥, responder should assume a 5 card suit.

Quite frankly, the 2♥ rebid has been known to be made on 4 cards, typically with 4441 distribution.

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2♥.

[the hog]

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.

[NicebutDim]

 the hog, on 2014-April-18, 18:50, said:

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

[gordontd]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-19, 02:03, said:

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

It would certainly create a problem if that weakest possible response happens to be 2♥

[wank]

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2014-April-19, 05:32, said:

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?

So you want to be in 3N opposite xxx, Jxx, Qxxxx, xx ?

If you bid it as balanced it's an interesting question as to whether to show it as 4-4 or 3-5 in the majors when partner enquires.

[mike777]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-19, 02:03, said:

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

yes...I expect I may guess 3nt over a 2h response but there are other options.
2h=deny a or k but unlimited tiny points.

[billw55]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-18, 12:48, said:

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2♥.

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.

[NicebutDim]

 billw55, on 2014-April-21, 06:20, said:

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

[hrothgar]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

I think that most players would chose to rebid 3♣ showing a second negative rather than bidding a very unilateral 4♥.

After 3♣, partner would pattern out by bidding 3♠ and you (probably) have a raise to 4

[ArtK78]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

Suppose partner were 3-5-0-5 with hearts and clubs and a huge hand. What is he supposed to bid over 2♣ - 2♦? Or any 4405 hand with 5 hearts? Or, for that matter, 4531? Just because 2NT is a plausible rebid on the hand that he had doesn't mean there will not be other hands where a 2NT rebid is out of the question but his longest suit is 5 cards.

That is why it is wrong to jump to 4♥ on a doubleton. His 2♥ bid doesn't promise 6 for very practical reasons - it would make some hands totally unbiddable. Even holding some hands that partner MIGHT choose to rebid 2NT - say a 4-4-1-4 24 count with the ♦A (or even a lesser honor), partner might decide that a 2♥ rebid is a lesser misdescription of his hand than 2NT.

In other words, 4♥ might not be the best contract. Better to let partner describe his hand more fully before you leap to the 4 level.

By the way, if you reserve your 2♣ opener for hands that have 10 playing tricks (excluding hands where you intend to rebid some number of NT) you will be opening 1 of a suit on some extremely strong hands. I suggest that you lower your requirements somewhat. I am very conservative in my suit oriented opening 2♣ bids, and my requirement is basically a 3 loser hand by modified losing trick count - one loser for each card in a suit up to 3 reduced by each A, K and Q held in the suit (Q does not count for a doubleton, and K and Q do not count for a singleton). Having a 3 loser hand doesn't mean that I have 10 playing tricks. Qxx is only 2 losers by MLTC, but it is hardly worth one playing trick.

[billw55]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h
At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts.

I am not convinced that this is true, absent a particular agreement with your partner.

[kenberg]

Read the first response, from brothgar, to see how most people think of this. If you open 1♥ there is a severe danger that partner will pass but show up with Qxx in diamonds and xxx in hearts, likely enough for ten tricks. The sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT distorts the hand too much in my opinion. Opener can have a five card major and bid that way, often does in fact, but 5-4 in the majors with one of the minors unstopped and the other minor iffy? No thanks.

So I, and I think most, begin 2♣-2♦-2♥.

Because we do this, most play responder's rebid of 3♣ as conventional, showing a weak hand. If you don't want to play this "second negative" convention after the negative 2♦-2M (it's one of the oldest in bridge except for things such as blackwood and stayman) then you have to have some other agreement that would let you get out. Maybe a raise to 3♥ is passable. Or even bidding 2♠ and then (on a different hand) 3♥ might be passable, although that sounds weird.

I once played against a pair where the auction went 2♣-2♦-2♥-Pass. I turned to opener and, in my most innocent voice, asked "Do you play that as a second negative?". She had to think for a while but eventually allowed that it was. I don't recommend this approach.


Incidentally, if responder really has nothing it is not quite a slam dunk that 4♠ makes, although I gather that it did. A second negative still does not show truly nothing, maybe something like 0 to 3 highs. And the 3 won't be a king. So you will likely end in game here, it's not a lock but at least spades has a decent shot.If you stop short of game that could be right on some layouts.

[Zelandakh]

 NicebutDim, on 2014-April-21, 13:52, said:

At the table, the auction started
2c, 2d, 2h

Assuming that you and partner had not discussed such things as whether a second round minor is a double negative here and that your hand was something like 4234/4243, it would seem the logical thing to bid 2♠ now.