[Fluffy]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-13, 21:45, said:

I was discussing this hand with one of the other players. He didn't give it much stock, as he said that he didn't gear his bidding system on how to handle hands with 9 card suits. There is some wisdom in that.

You mean neither of you though about 2♣+4♣ as solid clubs asking for cuebid?, maybe the bid is less standard as I though.

[ArtK78]

 Fluffy, on 2014-April-14, 01:24, said:

You mean neither of you though about 2♣+4♣ as solid clubs asking for cuebid?, maybe the bid is less standard as I though.

2♣ followed by 4♣ is the only available club forcing bid below game, as 3♣ is nonforcing. So it does not show solid clubs and ask for a cuebid.

[MrAce]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-14, 06:50, said:

2♣ followed by 4♣ is the only available club forcing bid below game, as 3♣ is nonforcing. So it does not show solid clubs and ask for a cuebid.

What about 3♥ then 4♣ ? Is this invitation ?

[rhm]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-14, 06:50, said:

2♣ followed by 4♣ is the only available club forcing bid below game, as 3♣ is nonforcing. So it does not show solid clubs and ask for a cuebid.

 MrAce, on 2014-April-14, 07:24, said:

What about 3♥ then 4♣ ? Is this invitation ?

It does not really matter what you do. In the end you will have to take a decision based on guesswork.
Even in my methods where 4♣ would be minorwood (no prior trump agreement necessary!). It solves this pair of hands but mishandles others
That's why I think freaks are boring problems.

Rainer Herrmann

[manudude03]

I would have bid 2C followed by 5C myself. I think partner with 3 outside aces and other goodies should raise though.

[mfa1010]

4♣. I don't see why I should give up on slam with 9 tricks + a good kicker and a partner who opened the bidding?!

Did he deny a hand as strong as xxxx, Kx, Axxxx, xx?

My hand is powerful so I'm inviting slam.

[ArtK78]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-14, 07:24, said:

What about 3♥ then 4♣ ? Is this invitation ?

No - this is forcing, and my partner said that this is what I should have done. And, as with all things, this is a 100% action in his opinion.

When I said that 2♣ followed by 4♣ is the only club forcing bid below game, it was a slight misstatement. What I should have said was that 3♣ is not forcing - everything else is forcing to game. However, that means that the only way to bid CLUBS below game and force is 4♣.

I think 3♥ followed by 4♣ shows a hand with long (but not freakishly long) clubs and more high card strength than my actual hand. Something like x KJx xx AKQxxxx. Given that I made a 2/1 before bidding 5♣, I should have something more than just long clubs (which I could have shown by bidding 5♣ over 1♦).

[MrAce]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-14, 08:40, said:

No - this is forcing, and my partner said that this is what I should have done. And, as with all things, this is a 100% action in his opinion.

When I said that 2♣ followed by 4♣ is the only club forcing bid below game, it was a slight misstatement. What I should have said was that 3♣ is not forcing - everything else is forcing to game. However, that means that the only way to bid CLUBS below game and force is 4♣.

I think 3♥ followed by 4♣ shows a hand with long (but not freakishly long) clubs and more high card strength than my actual hand. Something like x KJx xx AKQxxxx. Given that I made a 2/1 before bidding 5♣, I should have something more than just long clubs (which I could have shown by bidding 5♣ over 1♦).

Ok.

I think one way or the other, we need to bid 4♣ as I said earlier. We desperately need to hear hearts from pd. If he bids 4♦ over 4♣ we can at least tell him our problem is in heart suit by bidding 4♠. I don't think what we show is that important, as Rainer said we are the ones who need to take action. Hearing red cues from pd or asking him to help us by saying where we struggle helps us to make more accurate decision.

Assume he bids 3 NT over 3♥, I am sure you will agree how easy it makes life for us, since we hold Q it must be either A or K and your style of cuebidding (first round control always) gives you advantage when you hear 4♦ over 4♣

[ArtK78]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-14, 11:54, said:

Assume he bids 3 NT over 3♥, I am sure you will agree how easy it makes life for us, since we hold Q it must be either A or K and your style of cuebidding (first round control always) gives you advantage when you hear 4♦ over 4♣

Suppose the auction goes as suggested:

1♦ - 2♣
2♠ - 3♥
3NT - 4♣
4♦ - ?

You are suggesting that I bid 4♠ now? Is this unambiguously a cue bid? Partner bid spades naturally at the 2 level. Would I have passed 3NT with Kxx Qxx --- AKQJxxx? If I held that hand, would I not bid 4♠ now to suggest a place to play?

Just acting as devil's advocate here. I think that 4♠ must be a cue bid. But I can see the possibility of winding up in a 4-0 fit if I bid 4♠ and partner gets confused.

[mfa1010]

3♣ and 3♦ would be nonforcing over 2♠.

So imo 3♥ then 4♣ after partner's 3N shows a flexible slam try, while a direct 4♣ is CLUBS. If partner bids 4♦ over a delayed 4♣, I would take it as natural, and my 4♠ over that as a cuebid for diamonds.

[Fluffy]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-14, 12:26, said:

Suppose the auction goes as suggested:

1♦ - 2♣
2♠ - 3♥
3NT - 4♣
4♦ - ?

You are suggesting that I bid 4♠ now? Is this unambiguously a cue bid? Partner bid spades naturally at the 2 level. Would I have passed 3NT with Kxx Qxx --- AKQJxxx? If I held that hand, would I not bid 4♠ now to suggest a place to play?

Just acting as devil's advocate here. I think that 4♠ must be a cue bid. But I can see the possibility of winding up in a 4-0 fit if I bid 4♠ and partner gets confused.

Most of what you said on this thread had logic, but suggesting a late 4M bid after a slam try is a suggestion to play in moysan really makes no sense.

[MrAce]

Deleted

[MrAce]

 mfa1010, on 2014-April-14, 14:20, said:

3♣ and 3♦ would be nonforcing over 2♠.

So imo 3♥ then 4♣ after partner's 3N shows a flexible slam try, while a direct 4♣ is CLUBS. If partner bids 4♦ over a delayed 4♣, I would take it as natural, and my 4♠ over that as a cuebid for diamonds.

 MrAce, on 2014-April-12, 18:49, said:

My approach may change depending on what 4♣ would be over 2♠.

Yes, if 4♣ means that, I would use it also as I implied in my first post. And you made a very good point why direct 4♣ is better, if both shows clubs and forcing. I like it.

 mfa1010, on 2014-April-14, 08:20, said:

4♣. I don't see why I should give up on slam with 9 tricks + a good kicker and a partner who opened the bidding?!

Did he deny a hand as strong as xxxx, Kx, Axxxx, xx?

My hand is powerful so I'm inviting slam.

I don't think we should invite pd. As Rainer and I suggested we are the ones to take an action. We know which cards are valuable and which not. Pd will not know whether you are void in spades or diamonds,if any. Or whether we have 7 or 8 or 9 card clubs, which may require secondary values in some of the suits and not just aces. We should try to force him to cue and then decide.

Pd also will not know to refuse slam when he holds a 20 hcp, and his previous bid was 11-20 range. AKQJ KJ KQJxxx x and will not know to accept with hands just like the one you constructed ♥ Kx ♦ Axxxx and little more to make it an opener.

But I am pretty sure you know all of that and meant "I am investigating slam" rather than "I am inviting slam"

[ArtK78]

 mfa1010, on 2014-April-14, 14:20, said:

3♣ and 3♦ would be nonforcing over 2♠.

No. 3♦ would be game forcing and natural. After the 2♣ response, the only nonforcing bid by responder is 3♣.

[mfa1010]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-15, 05:28, said:

No. 3♦ would be game forcing and natural. After the 2♣ response, the only nonforcing bid by responder is 3♣.

Oki.
That information means imo that 3♥+4♣ implies a little less in diamonds than if 3♦ had been NF. Because with a forcing 3♦ available we could also bid 3♦+4♣. But still a direct 4♣ is CLUBS and 3♥+4♣ more flexible.

[Zelandakh]

 Fluffy, on 2014-April-14, 14:30, said:

Most of what you said on this thread had logic, but suggesting a late 4M bid after a slam try is a suggestion to play in moysan really makes no sense.

Agreed when partner bids 3NT but it is more nebulous when they bid something else. What about

1♦ - 2♣;
2♠ - 3♥;
3♠ - 4♣;
4♦ - 4♠?

or

1♦ - 2♣;
2♠ - 3♥;
4♦ - 5♣?

All-in-all, going via 3♥ on this hand just seems like a really bad idea. You gain nothing over 2♣ -> 4♣ and potentially create a headache for yourself. Incidentally, rather than allowing the direct 4♣ to contain such a wide variety of hands as suggested, it makes more sense imho to move most of the hands that would have rebid 3♣ in 2/1 into 2NT, and the rest into 3♥. That allows 4♣ to retain a more precise meaning - how often do you want to use up a level and a half of bidding space while bypassing 3NT with a minor without very long clubs? Similarly to this idea of staying low where possible and giving higher calls progressivle more precise meanings, I do not understand why you are taking the 3♥ route with x KJx xx AKQxxxx - this seems perfectly suited to a 2NT rebid with that heart holding, giving space to get some additional information before deciding whether to commit to 4♣.

[Fluffy]

I would bid 2♣ + 4♣ as it shows no doubt on strain, but as MrAce said, if partner doesn't bid 3NT over 3♥ we are off ♥AK so it doesn't matter much.