[Cyberyeti]

---

This deal features IMO a bizarre pass of 3♣ by my partner holding this hand and a spectacularly unsuccessful balance by E.

Questions:

What's the minimum strength required for 3♣ in this auction ?
What do you bid over 3♣ ?
What do you think partner has for 5♥ and what do you bid over it ?

System is Acol so 1N is limited to 9

[ggwhiz]

AKJxxx, void, x, AKQxxx?

or turn a small club into the Ace of diamonds

I'm bidding 6♣ but don't consider the pass of 3 of them bizarre just a tiny bit conservative. I imagine north fully expects a balance (the opps have fits in both reds and some values) and would then bid 4♣ limiting their ambitions with those hearts worth nothing on offence.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2013-September-21, 09:57, said:

AKJxxx, void, x, AKQxxx?

or turn a small club into the Ace of diamonds

I'm bidding 6♣ but don't consider the pass of 3 of them bizarre just a tiny bit conservative. I imagine north fully expects a balance (the opps have fits in both reds and some values) and would then bid 4♣ limiting their ambitions with those hearts worth nothing on offence.

Think I might have opened a hand that makes a slam opposite a 2434 yarborough 2♣.

6♣ was my first thought on partner's hand.

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-21, 10:25, said:

Think I might have opened a hand that makes a slam opposite a 2434 yarborough 2♣.

6♣ was my first thought on partner's hand.

Matter of style. They can thunder you with a pre-empt (4♥ or 5♦) if you open 2♣ and one of them has Qxx in spades. The notion that 1♠ would go float never occurred to me. What else can you have for a 5♥ bid?

I'm curious but let others weigh in before you reveal it.

[wyman]

6C for me. Just feels right. If its a lead director v 6d, it's still right to bid 6c I think

[gszes]

AKxxxx A void Axxxxx or some such similar holding but if too much stronger 3c would
be too weak. Responders distribution in openers suits is pretty well known and the 5h
bid (since it cant be for a lead) should be a last train type call looking for any extra help
responder might have in what has become a grand slam search. Responder has
no extra help and should be happy with a 6c bid which should show extra length but
nothing else useful (honor x in spades is expected for 4s bid).

I am not happy with the pass of 3c with responders hand too many clubs and useful spade
Q. Would much prefer to see 4c.

[FrancesHinden]

The strength required for 3C depends on the meaning of 2NT.
If 2NT is natural, then 3C is very wide range: you want to bid over 2H with, say, AJ10xx x Kx Axxxx (although you possibly feel you shouldn't), but certainly a 6-5 12-count is quite possible.
I might open 1S on AKJxxx - x AKxxxx (although not with the CQ in addition) but I certainly wouldn't bid 3C over 2H because it isn't forcing.

As for what partner actually has, to be honest I don't think the auction exists. 3C wasn't forcing; 3S wasn't forcing. There is no hand where partner can suddenly have found a slam try.
5H definitely implies that one of partner's earlier bids was a misbid; we just have to guess now which of his various actions was wrong.

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-21, 03:26, said:

What's the minimum strength required for 3♣ in this auction ?

9 HCP? I supose you might open some 8 count with a 6-6, but you get the point.

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-21, 03:26, said:

---

This deal features IMO a bizarre pass of 3♣ by my partner holding this hand and a spectacularly unsuccessful balance by E.

Questions:

What's the minimum strength required for 3♣ in this auction ?

5-5 in the blacks and a minimum opening would be ok. Slightly stronger if only 5-4
If a bid can be competitive opposite a limited partner, it is.

Quote

What do you bid over 3♣ ?

3NT, must show my heart stopper in case partner has more than a minimum. The bidding implies a club fit, so partner can correct.

Quote

What do you think partner has for 5♥ and what do you bid over it ?

Can partner have ♠AKxxxx, ♥Ax,♦-, ♣AKxxx ?
I think 3♣ would be a terrible underbid, not to mention 3♠.
So I bid 6♣ and hope we can make it. The bidding is bizarre from both sides.
I think North holds ♠Kxxxxxx,♥A,♦-,♣AKxxx

Rainer Herrmann

[FrancesHinden]

rhm, on 2013-September-22, 06:05, said:

I think North holds ♠Kxxxxxx,♥A,♦-,♣AKxxx

Rainer Herrmann

Well yes, but that's a 4C bid over 2H

I think partner thought 3C was forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

For us 2N would be nat INV with a heart stop. I don't think 3♣ is forcing, but I don't think you pass that often and certainly not with a 5 card fit, we haven't discussed what 4♣ over 2♥ is. A really big hand I guess bids 3♥ first in style and pulls 3N if partner bids it.

[FrancesHinden]

The pass of 3C looks a little odd with 5-card support, but it's actually not obvious what game you are making
If LHO has AQxxxx in hearts - quite likely on the auction - and partner has 1 or 2 hearts - also very likely on the auction, then to make 3NT you need one or both of (i) to be able to take 9 tricks on a heart lead without letting RHO in, (ii) to be able to staunch the diamond suit. They won't always lead the right red suit, agreed, but it would be hard to argue with, say,

AJ10xx x Kx AQxxx

when 3NT is very close to hopeless

Even if you have 5 spade tricks you are are unlkely to be better than the club finesse. AKJxx x Kx AQxxx needs the club finesse on a heart lead, and needs more than that on a diamond lead.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-September-22, 15:14, said:

The pass of 3C looks a little odd with 5-card support, but it's actually not obvious what game you are making
If LHO has AQxxxx in hearts - quite likely on the auction - and partner has 1 or 2 hearts - also very likely on the auction, then to make 3NT you need one or both of (i) to be able to take 9 tricks on a heart lead without letting RHO in, (ii) to be able to staunch the diamond suit. They won't always lead the right red suit, agreed, but it would be hard to argue with, say,

AJ10xx x Kx AQxxx

when 3NT is very close to hopeless

Even if you have 5 spade tricks you are are unlkely to be better than the club finesse. AKJxx x Kx AQxxx needs the club finesse on a heart lead, and needs more than that on a diamond lead.

On the second one 4♠ is better than 3N I think.

My actual hand was AKJ10xx, Axx, void, KQxx, I visualised xx, xx, xxxx, Axxxx (add trash honours to taste to make a 1N response) where 6♣ is pretty much cold and 7 has play.

Take your pick of which slam you want to be in, if the overcaller is 2551 you want to be in clubs, if he's 1552 you want to be in spades in case his partner has A♣, I guess you pick 6♣ in case he's 1651.

[Zelandakh]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-September-22, 04:49, said:

The strength required for 3C depends on the meaning of 2NT and double.

An alternative to Good/Bad here is to play double as competitive, in effect replacing a weak 2m rebid. That allows a direct 3m to show extra values. This can also be reversed. Competitive doubles are often easier for intermediate players to understand and read than Good/Bad and can sometimes be an intermediate step before turning most (or all) of the competitive 2NT rebids artificial.

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-22, 14:50, said:

For us 2N would be nat INV with a heart stop. I don't think 3♣ is forcing, but I don't think you pass that often and certainly not with a 5 card fit, we haven't discussed what 4♣ over 2♥ is. A really big hand I guess bids 3♥ first in style and pulls 3N if partner bids it.

And a really distributional hand not interested in 3NT bids 4♣.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

rhm, on 2013-September-23, 04:21, said:

And a really distributional hand not interested in 3NT bids 4♣.

The only alternative I could see to this would be an auto-splinter, if your system allows splinters in unbid suits in competitive auctions.

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-22, 17:23, said:

On the second one 4♠ is better than 3N I think.

My actual hand was AKJ10xx, Axx, void, KQxx, I visualised xx, xx, xxxx, Axxxx (add trash honours to taste to make a 1N response) where 6♣ is pretty much cold and 7 has play.

Take your pick of which slam you want to be in, if the overcaller is 2551 you want to be in clubs, if he's 1552 you want to be in spades in case his partner has A♣, I guess you pick 6♣ in case he's 1651. I actually got the auction a fraction wrong in that the overcaller passed initially so it's not unlikely his partner has A♣.

Gosh. I can see some debate about the right bid over 2H, but I doubt 3C would rate very highly unless it was explained as a planned underbid.
Once you had bid 3C and partner passed it, did you not at least consider 4S over 3D rather than 3S?

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-September-23, 14:45, said:

Gosh. I can see some debate about the right bid over 2H, but I doubt 3C would rate very highly unless it was explained as a planned underbid.
Once you had bid 3C and partner passed it, did you not at least consider 4S over 3D rather than 3S?

My hand is not actually that good over 2♥, I viewed the most likely hand for partner as a diamond signoff, so didn't want to overdo it.

I clearly feel that partner will bid more often over 3♣ than you do.

Over 3♦ I think 3♠ shows a pretty big 6-4, I have no reason to assume we can make anything, what do you fancy being in opposite x, Jxx, KJxxx, xxxx for example (and yes we respond 1N with that).

[655321]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-23, 15:08, said:

My hand is not actually that good over 2♥, I viewed the most likely hand for partner as a diamond signoff, so didn't want to overdo it.

I clearly feel that partner will bid more often over 3♣ than you do.

Over 3♦ I think 3♠ shows a pretty big 6-4, I have no reason to assume we can make anything, what do you fancy being in opposite x, Jxx, KJxxx, xxxx for example (and yes we respond 1N with that).

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-23, 14:36, said:

The one I remember as male was "The peacock" the guy who can't possibly be wrong and will analyse endlessly to "prove" this after he's done something strange.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm not saying I'm right, I posted the stuff up here to try to find out what other people do, and to explain why I did what I did. I still haven't seen what people suggest I bid instead of 3♣ (X would be T/O of ♥ for us so not on the menu unless I want to work out what to bid over 5♦). Basically systemically I could bid 3♣, 3♥ or 3♠ and I'm not sure which is best.

What's right for us (we tend to both open and respond to 1 openers lighter than most people) may not be right for others anyway, I'm going to really love this if I bid more than 3♣ and partner has void, Jxx, KJxxxxx, xxx or similar which didn't seem unlikely till opps started bidding diamonds, hence me then waking up with 5♥.