[Hanoi5]

weak

---

MP's. 4 Spades makes. 4 Hearts goes off only one.

[Siegmund]

Plenty to go around, but West's first pass is the most obvious place to point a finger.

[bigbenvic]

West should bid 4♠ IMO, he has a 9 count plus a stiff ♥ which should be game opposite enough opening hands tha can bid 3♠ to make it worthwhile.

[rhm]

I would blame both (or neither), but I see more problems with East bids.
Assuming that the 1♠ bid showed 5 cards, East 3♠ bid is conservative.
The singleton heart is marked in West's hand and the ♦K is not needed for 4♠.
In fact without the ♦K, West has a clear pass over 4♥ and my guess is 4♥ doubled would not have gone down.
When the 3♥ bid takes away your single raise, East will often stretch to show spade support.
I see few East pass in this position nowadays holding 4 card spade support, when having little more than an opening. Everybody seems to be law abiding.
It follows that with a maximum genuine jump raise you must stretch again and bid game and West should be more conservative over a competitive 3♠ bid than a genuine jump raise.
In fact at these colors the immediate stretch to game by East is good MP tactics since NS will often take the push anyway.
I bet East would have bid 4♠ over an immediate 4♥ bid.
Accordingly it is not so clear whether West should bid game over a stretched 3♠ bid or leave it to partner.
Usually it is better for the one long in opponents suit to take the final decision.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

If 1♠ showed 5, East has 4.5 loser hand in spades and all blame goes to him, if only 4 this is a little trickier.

[Cyberyeti]

East, he has a huge hand, give partner Axxxx, x, xxxx, Axx and slam is not bad. Somebody just counted points and not tricks.

[Trinidad]

While I do agree with the idea that East on this hand sh/could have been more active, I always have a problem with this kind of reasoning:

rhm, on 2013-January-24, 03:40, said:

The singleton heart is marked in West's hand.

- if North -who is white vs red- would have raised with three hearts, West could well have a doubleton heart. Then East is supposed to tell West that he didn't have the singleton that the opponents promised?
- if East -instead of the ♥Q- would have an extra club, he should be more conservative because the singleton heart is not "marked" in the West hand and there may be two quick heart losers?

If we can see that partner is "marked with a singleton" why don't we just trust that partner can see that for himself and rely on him to evaluate accordingly?

I can understand that you want to be more aggressive if your holding particularly fits the "marked singleton". If you hold ♥xxx(x), you should push harder since your values (that must be somewhere else) are fitting with partner's. Partner cannot see that you don't have wasted values opposite his shortness. But in this case, you hold ♥QT8. That is more than 2 HCP down the drain, which is not less but more wastage than partner will expect you to hold in hearts. So, if anything, as long as you can trust partner to evaluate his singleton for himself, holding ♥QT8 should make you somewhat more conservative rather than more aggressive.

Rik

[Hanoi5]

Doesn't 3♠ followed by a double of 4♥ show a better hand than'just competing'?
Isn't bidding 4♠ over 3♥ a punishment for a partner bidding 1♠ on QJxxx x QJxx Jxx?

[Hanoi5]

Doesn't 3♠ followed by a double of 4♥ show a better hand than'just competing'?
Isn't bidding 4♠ over 3♥ a punishment for a partner bidding 1♠ on QJxxx x QJxx Jxx?

[Trinidad]

Hanoi5, on 2013-January-24, 08:48, said:

Doesn't 3♠ followed by a double of 4♥ show a better hand than'just competing'?

Yes, it does, particularly a hand that is better for defending, not necessarily a hand that is better for declaring.

Hanoi5, on 2013-January-24, 08:48, said:

Isn't bidding 4♠ over 3♥ a punishment for a partner bidding 1♠ on QJxxx x QJxx Jxx?

The simpel fact that opposite that hand 4♠ would be a good contract (while not cold) shows that East should have made the decision to bid game.

The fact that the actual West hand is so much better than this example shows that West also should have decided to bid game.

Given the above two statements, it's not entirely surprising that EW have a good chance of taking 11 tricks with the hands that they were dealt.

Rik

[mikeh]

Those who blame East must live a sheltered life in which opps at favourable never overcall on 4 card heart suits. Else, how to explain the absolute confidence that responder holds a stiff heart? Surely not because they saw the hand?

To me the blame is squarely on West. Firstly, he has a great hand once partner shows 4 card support, and I would expect 3♠ to promise 4 card support for most players. It also, in my world, but I am old-fashioned, shows more than a horrible hand...it doesn't have to be good enough to have jumped to the 3 level absent the 3♥ call, since we are under pressure, but neither is it obligatory on all hands with 4 spades. So partner has a decent opening hand and we have an assured 9 card fit and some suggestion that our Axx in clubs will be valuable.

Thus I think West ought to bid 4♠ immediately.

I have trouble with the double of 4♥. It wouldn't be my choice. Partner could hold a much worse hand for his 1♠ bid, such that double offers us a choice of -590 or -500. I wonder if West broke tempo over 4♥? Having seen the double, surely NOW west should wake up and pull, but if he did maybe we'd be discussing a committee problem.

[neilkaz]

I think east requires at least a little bit extra to bid 3♠ so most of the blame here is West's as he should continue onto 4♠. That being said, I don't care for east's double of 4♥.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on 2013-January-24, 10:24, said:

Those who blame East must live a sheltered life in which opps at favourable never overcall on 4 card heart suits

not sure of what sheltered means, but yes, my opponents never overcall 4 card suits. But if they did I'd expect them to have 3/5 honnors, given that I have 2/5 chances are pretty low. North having 3 cards is more likelly IMO. But still partner can have low doubleton with just ♠Axxxx and out and game is playable!

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-24, 15:16, said:

not sure of what sheltered means, but yes, my opponents never overcall 4 card suits. But if they did I'd expect them to have 3/5 honnors, given that I have 2/5 chances are pretty low. North having 3 cards is more likelly IMO. But still partner can have low doubleton with just ♠Axxxx and out and game is playable!

Life's a bit more wild in my neck of the woods: AJ9x would be enough on some layouts, and AKJx would be almost mandatory at favourable

One of my semi-regular partners (from when I played, which I don't anymore) would freely do it on KJxx if the rest of the hand seemed appropriate.

[ggwhiz]

My partner promised 5 when they bid 1♠. I promised 13 card when I bid 3 of them and only 3 pieces.

After I double 4♥ only then do I show some real stuff but where is it? I would shoot 4♠ with the west hand but with my fingers crossed so not much blame coming from me. If pard had only 3 spades and a heart winner......etc.

[bigbenvic]

ggwhiz, on 2013-January-24, 18:17, said:

My partner promised 5 when they bid 1♠. I promised 13 card when I bid 3 of them and only 3 pieces.

After I double 4♥ only then do I show some real stuff but where is it? I would shoot 4♠ with the west hand but with my fingers crossed so not much blame coming from me. If pard had only 3 spades and a heart winner......etc.

Is partner forced to bid 3♠ with every opening hand that has 3 spades? Would you accept a pass if he held a frisky 11 count with what appears to be non working heart card/s?

Why would you pass 4♥ as west though? Partner opened 1♣ supported your spades and you have a stiff ♥ and the A♣, plus The K♦ is another good card. 3♥ looks like a pre-emptive raise so if partner is missing the AQ it is highly likely that righty (south) has the Ace as he overcalled.

Pards either has a wk NT hand or he has an unbalanced hand of some kind with 8+ black cards - so we'd have a double fit. We could have a double fit v the wk NT hand too.

Passing isn't forcing here (IMO) so we could be selling out, I am so much better than I could be for a 1♠ bid, yes my trumps are poor but everything else about the hand says to me bid the game.

[rhm]

Trinidad, on 2013-January-24, 06:55, said:

While I do agree with the idea that East on this hand sh/could have been more active, I always have a problem with this kind of reasoning:

rhm said:

The singleton is marked in the West hand

- if North -who is white vs red- would have raised with three hearts, West could well have a doubleton heart. Then East is supposed to tell West that he didn't have the singleton that the opponents promised?

North did not raise, but jump raise

In Bridge like real life nothing is certain except taxes and death.
Inferences in Bridge are rarely absolute but that North South will have at least 9 cards in hearts is pretty strong.
If you do not like to take such inferences this is not a game for you.

Quote

- if East -instead of the ♥Q- would have an extra club, he should be more conservative because the singleton heart is not "marked" in the West hand and there may be two quick heart losers?

If North South have ten hearts they likely would have bid more, particularly at these colors. Again not an absolute inference.
If after North 3♥ bid, East has six clubs and two hearts his heart holding is certainly much worse, but at least partly compensated by the fact that his clubs would now be much stronger offensively and worse for defense.

Quote

If we can see that partner is "marked with a singleton" why don't we just trust that partner can see that for himself and rely on him to evaluate accordingly?

Because partner can rely that we can deduce his singleton but he can not infer how much we have wasted in hearts.

Quote

I can understand that you want to be more aggressive if your holding particularly fits the "marked singleton". If you hold ♥xxx(x), you should push harder since your values (that must be somewhere else) are fitting with partner's. Partner cannot see that you don't have wasted values opposite his shortness. But in this case, you hold ♥QT8. That is more than 2 HCP down the drain, which is not less but more wastage than partner will expect you to hold in hearts. So, if anything, as long as you can trust partner to evaluate his singleton for himself, holding ♥QT8 should make you somewhat more conservative rather than more aggressive.

Rik

You are contradicting yourself here. If partner can not know what we got in hearts he is not in a good position to know how valuable his singleton really is.
But it can not be right if both East and West "double account" for the same singleton.
Yes it is true that the heart queen and ten are wasted, but the remainder of the East hand is still good enough to jump to game.
At the point when opener had to take a decision over 3♥, I would not value the East hand as 4.5 losers, but it is at least 1.5 losers less than a minimum opening.
Too much for a competitive 3♠ bid.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on 2013-January-24, 15:21, said:

One of my semi-regular partners (from when I played, which I don't anymore) would freely do it on KJxx if the rest of the hand seemed appropriate.

I overcall KJxx nonvul when I am partnering godzilla, doubling has proved to be a bad tactic with him, and 3-level moysan fits with him as dummy have a better score expentancy that defeding something. Your ex-partner most likelly had other reasons to overcall KJxx , or perhaps that's why you don't play anymore hehe.

[lalldonn]

If one of easts spades were a diamond i would want to be in game as west (it's close but at the table i would never want to miss it). If west's king of diamonds were a small one i would want to be in game as east. It's obvious to me that both players had a game bid and both are at fault.