[jillybean]

I'm getting stuck in the 3N trap and not finding our minor slams.

---

PS thanks BBO/BBF for letting me play again

[manudude03]

a 16 count with 3 aces has too much slam potential for me. I'll bid 2S (partner will very rarely have 4 spades so it's safe). I'll settle for 3N if partner bids NT, but otherwise push for a diamond game/slam.

[mikeh]

It is important and yet difficult to overcome the tendency to play 3N rather than 5m. Playing a lot of mps or playing with players who have done so makes 3N seem irresistible.

Here, our Aces plus the knowledge that partner has 6 diamonds (he has imo no excuse for rebidding a 5 card suit after this start) makes us suspect both that 5♦ is safe and that on a good day we have a biddable slam. Something as innocuos looking as Kxx x KQxxxx AJx give us play.

Part of the problem is, I suspect, doubt about how to continue and doubt about whether the partnership can work out level.

I normally fake the black suit, and I'd fake spades here. I am hoping this leads to 2N, which is why I fake spades not clubs. Partner is never committing us to spades and I maximize room.

Over the hoped for 2N I bid 3♦ which has to be forcing. After that, we'll be feeling our way along.

[Fluffy]

same as mike, we need to invite to slam and get a response from partner if he likes it or not, he might missjudge a heart shortness but other than that simply saying I am interested in 6♦ should do the trick.

[jillybean]

I'm not envisioning partners hand well or if I am, I am creating the worse possible hand for partner. Somthing like xx,Kx,Qxxxxx,AKx
where going down in 5♦ is a possibility. The only option I considered other than the knee jerk 3N was 4H keycard. I rejected bidding
2♠ as I'm often conscious of Mike's comment "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." and thought 2♠ was too much of a distortion. Obviously here, if I am not prepared to ask for keycards, 2♠ is far superior than a 3N bid.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2012-November-18, 00:55, said:

I'm not envisioning partners hand well or if I am, I am creating the worse possible hand for partner. Somthing like xx,Kx,Qxxxxx,AKx
where going down in 5♦ is a possibility. The only option I considered other than the knee jerk 3N was 4H keycard. I rejected bidding
2♠ as I'm often conscious of Mike's comment "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." and thought 2♠ was too much of a distortion. Obviously here, if I am not prepared to ask for keycards, 2♠ is far superior than a 3N bid.

There are a few auctions in which, in standard methods, responder needs to find a way of creating a force and has no natural bid that does both shape and force.

Both partners need to know when one of these arises, and then opener won't see the bidding as 'shape'.

This often arises when responder has made a 1-level response and opener has rebid his suit. We're all comfortable with the idea that FSF is artificial, but that requires opener to have changed suit. So when he simply rebids we have to resort to '3rd suit forcing', the problem initially being that the 3rd suit MAY be natural.

[jillybean]

Thanks very much.

[MickyB]

 jillybean, on 2012-November-18, 00:55, said:

Somthing like xx,Kx,Qxxxxx,AKx
where going down in 5♦ is a possibility.

Unless I am missing something, 5D is much, much better than 3NT opposite this hand.

2S should be completely artificial in this sequence, its use as a natural bid is even less than most 4th suit bids. Something like 1D:1S, 2D is a trickier start, as you may still have a 4-4 heart fit.

[mike777]

btw with opener being 6-4 and more than a minimum I really dislike the 2d rebid..

A 2c rebid would be a big help on this deal.

for me I dont think that responder hand is all that great after 2d..can live with 2s or 3nt.

[jillybean]

 MickyB, on 2012-November-18, 12:33, said:

Unless I am missing something, 5D is much, much better than 3NT opposite this hand.

2S should be completely artificial in this sequence, its use as a natural bid is even less than most 4th suit bids. Something like 1D:1S, 2D is a trickier start, as you may still have a 4-4 heart fit.

3N would not be an offer to play there, it's "serious 3N".

[MickyB]

 jillybean, on 2012-November-18, 14:30, said:

3N would not be an offer to play there, it's "serious 3N".

I don't understand this comment, were you trying to reply to someone else?

[jillybean]

 MickyB, on 2012-November-18, 14:45, said:

I don't understand this comment, were you trying to reply to someone else?

Yeah you'd think so, I'm getting my topics crossed. Ignore all of that nonsense.

[Zelandakh]

 MickyB, on 2012-November-18, 12:33, said:

Something like 1D:1S, 2D is a trickier start, as you may still have a 4-4 heart fit.

It seems like you get around this by playing 2♥ as hearts or weak with spades and then 2♠ is freed up for an artificial force. Or, better still, you can play the ETM Gadget or something equivlent. If you already play xyz then these methods in 1m - 1M; 2m auctions just feel natural so it is a pretty short step from one to the other imho.

[jillybean]

 MickyB, on 2012-November-18, 12:33, said:

Something like 1D:1S, 2D is a trickier start, as you may still have a 4-4 heart fit.

Do you have a gadget to discover a 4-4 heart fit here?

[Zelandakh]

 jillybean, on 2012-November-19, 09:19, said:

Do you have a gadget to discover a 4-4 heart fit here?

Did you follow the link Jilly?
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 2♠ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, NF
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 3♥ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, invitational
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, GF

[jillybean]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-November-19, 09:41, said:

Did you follow the link Jilly?
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 2♠ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, NF
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 3♥ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, invitational
1♦ - 1♠; 2♦ - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, GF

Yes, tyvm. I was wondering if Mike or others had other methods here.

[gnasher]

 jillybean, on 2012-November-19, 09:55, said:

I was wondering if Mike or others had other methods here.

Mike has other methods everywhere.

[MickyB]

 gnasher, on 2012-November-19, 10:41, said:

Mike has other methods everywhere.

Yes, in fact my "other methods" involve not reaching this position! Sorry.