[sathyab]

---

3♣ showed extras. 5nt was pick-a-slam.

[Zelandakh]

I honestly do not know what 4♦ was meant to mean here. For me it would be agreeing clubs but clearly neither player thought that. It seems pretty clear to bid 4♥ over 4♣ - whatever 4♦ showed it does not give the right message of a minimum misfitting GF with 7 broken hearts. That said, this is hardly the worst slam in the world - we have all been in worse! The Acolite in me wants to bid the hand somewhere along the lines of 1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♠ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥; 5♥ but I know that concept (opening 1♣ with 5♠-5♣) is completely alien to most of you across The Pond.

[aguahombre]

North has a nice hand ---perhaps a bit more than his high reverse to 3C showed. But, if South has the cards needed for slam he will move over 4NT. The leap to 5NT was premature.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-02, 02:10, said:

The Acolite in me wants to bid the hand somewhere along the lines of 1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♠ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥; 5♥ but I know that concept (opening 1♣ with 5♠-5♣) is completely alien to most of you across The Pond.

This was my first thought, we have the agreement to bid strong but not GF 5-5 in the blacks this way (we open weaker ones 1♠, and the same hand without 2 of the 3 red cards ie 2 good suits but not a great hand we'd bid 1♣-1♥-2♠ NF).

[Codo]

I open the strong hands 1 ♠ because I am not afraid to rebid 3 ♣. But anyway back to the problem.
I like the bidding till 3 Clubs. I had bid 4 ♥ over this: A hand worth a 2/1 but just about hearts, no tolerance for spades or clubs and I do not care much about a fit.
If north makes another move, it will be 4 NT, which I would identify as RCKB for hearts and we will still stop in 5 Hearts, missing an ace and the queen of hearts...

If 2♥ 4 ♥ opposite an non-fitting two suiter does not show this hand, what does it show?

[Fluffy]

Sometimes picturing 2 losers is just a matter of keycards.
Assuming 2/1, the action should go like this:

1♠-2♥
3♣-3♥
4♣-4♥ (No other fit except hearts, and best game avaible, dont have any extras to bid anything else)
4NT-5♥ (2 without ♥Q)
pass

[Fluffy]

Codo, on 2012-November-02, 06:21, said:

If 2♥ 4 ♥ opposite an non-fitting two suiter does not show this hand, what does it show?

AJ109 with side ace and Kx is not exactly a hand that needs to play hearts, opposite AKJxx x x AQJxxxx 6 club looks great and even 7♣ is playable.

I would bid 3♥ and then 4♥ to show a more flexible hand. For me 2♥-4♥ shows a more heart oriented hand (Normally ♥Q and not the ace). AJ109xxx is 2 losers opposite sigleton but zero losers in another strain


Depending on how you play 1♠-4♥ maybe you also have to start with 2♥ with weaker hands also.

[phil_20686]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-02, 02:10, said:

I honestly do not know what 4♦ was meant to mean here. For me it would be agreeing clubs but clearly neither player thought that. It seems pretty clear to bid 4♥ over 4♣ - whatever 4♦ showed it does not give the right message of a minimum misfitting GF with 7 broken hearts. That said, this is hardly the worst slam in the world - we have all been in worse! The Acolite in me wants to bid the hand somewhere along the lines of 1♣ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♠ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥; 5♥ but I know that concept (opening 1♣ with 5♠-5♣) is completely alien to most of you across The Pond.

I think 4D was intended as Choice of Game, in which case it sends exactly the right message: that there is no primary fit. That should just fetch a quiet 4H from north. 4N over 4D is also an option.

[Cyberyeti]

Codo, on 2012-November-02, 06:21, said:

I open the strong hands 1 ♠ because I am not afraid to rebid 3 ♣. But anyway back to the problem.

So you show 5 spades and 4 clubs by 3♣ necessitating the 4♣ bid in the actual auction, I show 5-5 by 2♠.

If I had to open 1♠ I'd duplicate fluffy's auction.

[Codo]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-02, 06:41, said:

AJ109 with side ace and Kx is not exactly a hand that needs to play hearts, opposite AKJxx x x AQJxxxx 6 club looks great and even 7♣ is playable.

I would bid 3♥ and then 4♥ to show a more flexible hand. For me 2♥-4♥ shows a more heart oriented hand (Normally ♥Q and not the ace). AJ109xxx is 2 losers opposite sigleton but zero losers in another strain


Depending on how you play 1♠-4♥ maybe you also have to start with 2♥ with weaker hands also.

But your idea is impossible too. My partner would never open a strong 5117 with 1 Spade not even a 5116 . And if my hand had been with the black suits switched, I had surely not bid 4 ♥ because game in spade could be so much better.

[mikeh]

How to stay out of this one is an easy question to answer.

S knows of a misfit and has a broken suit. He has already bid 2/1 and even if that isn't game-forcing it wasn't a weakness bid. So I think 4♥ over 4♣ should be enough.

But N also knows of the misfit and, more importantly, knows that he has only one A. The stiff heart K is good, even on the auction as posted, with the potentially confusing 4♦call, but it can't be good enough to commit to slam.

In my opinion, both partners made poor choices towards the end.

Having said that, neither error was egregious, and thus it is not surprising that the quantitative bidding got the partnership to a contract that had play.

[lalldonn]

I don't think the auction was THAT bad honestly, and in practice I expect this slam to make around half the time anyway. Always when the heart queen falls, and often on the likely diamond lead even if it doesn't. Isn't this a very decent slam any time we don't get a spade lead?

[rmnka447]

I think 4 ♥ after 4 ♣ is right rather than 4 ♦. Responder has an 11 point 6 loser hand based more on a broken but playable 7 card ♥ suit than anything else. The hand was worth a game force because of the ♥s.

4 ♥ over 4 ♣ tells opener despite opener being at least 5-5 in the black suits responder prefers to play in ♥s. That's exactly the message needed.

[gnasher]

lalldonn, on 2012-November-02, 11:44, said:

I don't think the auction was THAT bad honestly, and in practice I expect this slam to make around half the time anyway. Always when the heart queen falls, and often on the likely diamond lead even if it doesn't. Isn't this a very decent slam any time we don't get a spade lead?

Yes, it does seem a good proposition. The trump queen dropping is 2/5 * 68 + 1/5 * 28 ~= 33%. If they lead a spade on 1/3 of the remaining hands, that gets us another 2/3 * 1/2 * 67 ~= 22%.

[Phil]

4♦ sounds like self-cue for hearts or an advance cue for clubs. As usual when we try to work out trump at the four level, things get messy.

North's hand isn't that great. The ♠K

[Phil]

4♦ in this sequence sounds like a self-cue for hearts or an advance cue for clubs.

Once again when we try to sort out trump at the four level, things get messy.

North's hand isn't really that great since the ♠KQ is hitting shortness.

- 3♣ usually shows five, so I don't understand the point of 4♣.

- South is rebidding into the face of a black two suiter. ♥K seems like sufficient support, so 4♦ over 3♥ looks like the right call.

Obviously its easier looking at both hands but something like this seems to flow better:

1♠ - 2♥
3♣ - 3♥
4♦ - RKC
response - 5♥.

[bigbenvic]

I like bidding 3♦ over 3♣ to show a better hand (4sf) and when partner bids 3NT I'll bid 4♥

My hand is too strong for a jump to 4♥ once partner has bid 3♣ and ripping the NT shows I have a hand willing to play in hearts opposite a likely 5134 type shape.

In this case he's 5125 and with K♥ and an 18 count I'd roll out RCKB and when he hears 2 without the Q he should give up.

[mikl_plkcc]

sathyab, on 2012-November-02, 00:22, said:

---

3♣ showed extras. 5nt was pick-a-slam.

We would go:
1♠ - 2♥
3♣ - 3♥
3NT - 4♥
//

I choose 3NT instead of 4♣ because it is a possible option. Be careful when bidding misfitting hands.