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law 15 board played out of order

#1 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 09:45

we had a hand come up where we played it out of order, when we went to put score into wireless device
then we realized it was the wrong board.

TD gave us an avg- and opps avg +, since we were NS, there was a sit out table before us so we ran into this several
times later also, sit out pair giving us the wrong boards.

what should the proper ruling be?
from my understanding of law 15 if both pairs have not played the hand then the results should stand and I assume the results for that
board need to be factored to the correct avg.
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#2 User is offline   semeai 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 09:53

If neither pair has played the board, it does look like you just score up the board. In this case, the board has likely been spoiled for EW and their future NS opponents against whom they're scheduled to play the board. The director should apply a procedural penalty I imagine.

Caveat: IANAL
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-25, 18:24

If I have this straight, you were NS at a table where your boards come from a sit out table. Somebody, presumably from the EW who were about to sit out (or possibly the EW who just sat out), handed you some boards, and you did not check them, just started playing. If you were stationary, as seems likely from your post, you (NS) are responsible for ensuring you have the correct boards (Law 7D).

Per Law 15:

1. If neither pair who played this board at your table had played it before, the result stands. Later, when the two pairs who played it meet the pairs with whom they were supposed to play it, those pairs get A+ on the board, and the two pairs who already played it keep their table result.

2. If either pair at your table had already played it, the result at your table is cancelled, the pair who already played it keep their original result, and the other pair get an artificial adjusted score (Law 12C2). In this case, the "other pair" is likely to be NS, and NS are directly at fault (see my comment about Law 7D above), so NS should get Average minus. If NS are scheduled to play the board against a third pair later on, that pair gets Average plus.

3. It's more complicated if the error is discovered during the auction period, but that apparently did not happen here, so I won't go into it.

4. NS are subject to a procedural penalty (Law 90), particularly if an adjusted score must be awarded at another table. In most club games this won't happen. I think that's regrettable, but it is what it is.

5. The bridgepad, or whatever you're using, will tell you which boards you should have. But you have to actually look at it, which most people don't do. :P

6. Assuming computer scoring, the scoring program should take care of any necessary factoring. In any case, that's the TD's problem, not the players'. ;)
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#4 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 03:49

The problem we face is this: if [you play the boards out of order and] you put the wrong board number in the scoring device for the board you have actually played, then at the end of the scoring you get to see the frequencies or "traveller" of other tables' results. These are results on a board you have not played yet and might make it impossible for these pairs to play that baord.

In the EBU this is covered in our regulation (when we started routinely displaying results from other tables): if North did not get the board right when entering the score and East did not check it when confirming the score, and the seeing the results makes the board unplayable AVE-/AVE-. If there was a violation of procedure and North confirmed the score: AVE-/AVE+.
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#5 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 04:43

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-25, 18:24, said:

If I have this straight, you were NS at a table where your boards come from a sit out table. Somebody, presumably from the EW who were about to sit out (or possibly the EW who just sat out), handed you some boards, and you did not check them, just started playing. If you were stationary, as seems likely from your post, you (NS) are responsible for ensuring you have the correct boards (Law 7D).

Per Law 15:

1. If neither pair who played this board at your table had played it before, the result stands. Later, when the two pairs who played it meet the pairs with whom they were supposed to play it, those pairs get A+ on the board, and the two pairs who already played it keep their table result.

There will be less confusion if you emphasize: ..."keep their original table result".

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-25, 18:24, said:

2. If either pair at your table had already played it, the result at your table is cancelled, the pair who already played it keep their original result, and the other pair get an artificial adjusted score (Law 12C2). In this case, the "other pair" is likely to be NS, and NS are directly at fault (see my comment about Law 7D above), so NS should get Average minus. If NS are scheduled to play the board against a third pair later on, that pair gets Average plus.

Is this a typo? How can NS be (directly) at fault if they are "the other pair", i.e. EW is the pair that had already played the board? Actually I fail to see how "the other pair" can be at fault at all.

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-25, 18:24, said:

3. It's more complicated if the error is discovered during the auction period, but that apparently did not happen here, so I won't go into it.

4. NS are subject to a procedural penalty (Law 90), particularly if an adjusted score must be awarded at another table. In most club games this won't happen. I think that's regrettable, but it is what it is.

5. The bridgepad, or whatever you're using, will tell you which boards you should have. But you have to actually look at it, which most people don't do. :P

6. Assuming computer scoring, the scoring program should take care of any necessary factoring. In any case, that's the TD's problem, not the players'. ;)

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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 06:48

View PostRMB1, on 2012-July-26, 03:49, said:

The problem we face is this: if [you play the boards out of order and] you put the wrong board number in the scoring device for the board you have actually played, then at the end of the scoring you get to see the frequencies or "traveller" of other tables' results. These are results on a board you have not played yet and might make it impossible for these pairs to play that baord.

In the EBU this is covered in our regulation (when we started routinely displaying results from other tables): if North did not get the board right when entering the score and East did not check it when confirming the score, and the seeing the results makes the board unplayable AVE-/AVE-. If there was a violation of procedure and North confirmed the score: AVE-/AVE+.

The ACBL has not established regulations in this area. Locally, we avoid the problem by not allowing players to see the results at other tables until after the session.
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#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 06:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-25, 18:24, said:

2. If either pair at your table had already played it, the result at your table is cancelled, the pair who already played it keep their original result, and the other pair get an artificial adjusted score (Law 12C2). In this case, the "other pair" is likely to be NS, and NS are directly at fault (see my comment about Law 7D above), so NS should get Average minus. If NS are scheduled to play the board against a third pair later on, that pair gets Average plus.

View Postpran, on 2012-July-26, 04:43, said:

Is this a typo? How can NS be (directly) at fault if they are "the other pair", i.e. EW is the pair that had already played the board? Actually I fail to see how "the other pair" can be at fault at all.

No, it's not a typo. If you read what I wrote carefully, you will see that I referred you to Law 7D. NS are directly at fault because they are, in accordance with that law, directly responsible for, among other things, ensuring that the proper boards are in play. Note: if neither pair was stationary, then both pairs are partly at fault.
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#8 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 09:21

If EW were keeping a private score, I'd expect them to notice the problem at the end of the auction (most players enter the contract on their score sheet at that time), if not earlier (many players fill in the "Opponents" column when they arrive at a table).

#9 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 09:26

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-26, 06:57, said:

No, it's not a typo. If you read what I wrote carefully, you will see that I referred you to Law 7D. NS are directly at fault because they are, in accordance with that law, directly responsible for, among other things, ensuring that the proper boards are in play. Note: if neither pair was stationary, then both pairs are partly at fault.

The way I read your post is that the correct board is about to be played by the correct pairs at the correct table, but that eventually one of the two pairs discover "We have already played this board".

How can "the other pair" ever be (even partially) at fault?

(IMHO it is completely irrelevant whether "the other pair" is stationary or not.)
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-26, 15:35

View Postpran, on 2012-July-26, 09:26, said:

The way I read your post is that the correct board is about to be played by the correct pairs at the correct table, but that eventually one of the two pairs discover "We have already played this board".

How can "the other pair" ever be (even partially) at fault?

(IMHO it is completely irrelevant whether "the other pair" is stationary or not.)

Well, in the scenario you propose here, you're right. The other pair, who are in the correct place at the correct time with the correct board(s), cannot be in any way at fault. But that's not the scenario I was writing about. I was writing about the scenario in the OP.
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#11 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 01:05

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-26, 15:35, said:

Well, in the scenario you propose here, you're right. The other pair, who are in the correct place at the correct time with the correct board(s), cannot be in any way at fault. But that's not the scenario I was writing about. I was writing about the scenario in the OP.

In the OP neither pair had played the board before, they were seated correctly for the round but played the wrong board (which neither of them had already played).

Law 15 is clear and straight forward: They receive the score they made on the board when (incorrectly) played the first time, and when each of the pairs eventually gets to play the board (the second time) they receive a 10% penalty (corresponding to A- adjusted score) while their respective opponents receive A+.

For the pairs at fault this penalty will most often be recorded as A- on some board they were scheduled to play but could not play due to lack of time: If because of the irregularity the pairs playing the wrong board cannot play all their scheduled boards (neither on schedule nor as late play) then each pair should receive A- on the scheduled board(s) they do not play.
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#12 User is offline   Lanor Fow 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 04:58

I agree law 15 seems clear (i'm reading it now), what I don't agree with is it saying anything about a 10% penalty applied to automatically. It says that artificial scores are assigned to those who have been unable to play the board, but as for those who have played the board before, it states only that the second score is cancelled.

Edit: It states that the director may assign a procedural penatly, but not that they have to, or always will

This post has been edited by Lanor Fow: 2012-July-27, 09:16

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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 08:00

Procedural penalties and score adjustments are separate and distinct entities, with different reasons for being awarded. The former is a punishment, the latter a redress for damage. To conflate the two is director error.
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#14 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 09:31

from what my interptation of the law
1.our score on the board should have stood since neither of us had played the board
2.the EW pair if they run into the board they already have a score and their opp NS should get AVG plus
3.if NS run into the board then they already have a score and their EW opps will get avg +( which is what will happen to
NS since they got the boards a round early)
3.its up to the discretion of the TD if he needs to apply any procedural penalties

Procedural penalties are different than adjustments, they are usually at the discretion of the TD...and if I am correct
they are final they are not open to committee or review.
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#15 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 09:58

Apparently not making my point sufficiently clear:

When a board is played out of turn at a table the involved players will often be unable to play all the boards they are scheduled to play because of the time they have spent on playing a wrong board.

So an artificial adjusted score will be needed on such unplayed boards. And as (technically) both pairs involved are at fault for the missing play I consider A- for both involved pairs reasonable?
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 11:01

Pigpenz: all correct except the last bit. PPs (Law 90) may be varied by an appeals committee (or director in charge, if he's not the one who made the original ruling). Disciplinary penalties (Law 91) may not be varied by a committee, although they may recommend the director change or eliminate it. Also, a committee cannot overturn a director's ruling on a point of law, only on a judgment matter, although they can recommend he change his ruling on a point of law.

Sven: no. The last part of Law 15B is "the director shall award an artificial adjusted score to the contestants deprived of the opportunity to earn a valid score". The contestants who already played the board already earned a valid score, so they get to keep that score. Only the contestants who don't get to play the board at all get an artificial adjusted score, which should be average-plus.
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 12:40

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-27, 11:01, said:

Only the contestants who don't get to play the board at all get an artificiaward an artificial adjusted score to the contestants deprived of the opportunity to earn a valid score". The contestants who already played theal adjusted score, which should be average-plus.


I think all Sven is saying is that if these teams should end up not being able to play a board because of the time taken to play the wrong board, they should both receive Average- on the board they didn't get to play.
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#18 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 13:55

View PostVampyr, on 2012-July-27, 12:40, said:

I think all Sven is saying is that if these teams should end up not being able to play a board because of the time taken to play the wrong board, they should both receive Average- on the board they didn't get to play.

Exactly!

Our normal schedules in Norway are usually so tight that if a table spends their 7 or 8 minutes on a board they are not supposed to play then there will be one board they are supposed to play that they never will be able to play. And even worse if they play their entire round with incorrect boards.

And incidentally: If you do some calculus you will find that the A- to both pairs on such boards may balance the extra A+ to those pairs that must take an artificial score on the boards their opponents have already played (out of order). So the total amount of points across the entire field in the session will be "correct"; not that this is important in any way.
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#19 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-27, 13:57

View PostVampyr, on 2012-July-27, 12:40, said:

I think all Sven is saying is that if these teams should end up not being able to play a board because of the time taken to play the wrong board, they should both receive Average- on the board they didn't get to play.

Ah. With that, I agree. B-)
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#20 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-July-30, 16:04

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-26, 06:48, said:

The ACBL has not established regulations in this area. Locally, we avoid the problem by not allowing players to see the results at other tables until after the session.

History tends to come into this. Traditionally, all EBU clubs and events had travelers, so not to allow other scores to be seen means the customers have lost a service.

In the ACBL, as I understand it, a lot of events and clubs used pickup slips, so not allowing them to see the other scores means they have lost nothing with the new arrangement.
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