[mikl_plkcc]

opponents silent

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - How to invite a NT slam?

2NT would be invitational to 3NT;
3NT would be a sign-off
4NT would be Blackwood
5NT would be Grand Slam Force;
2♥ would be 4SF, but if opener rebids a suit, then the problem persists.

Should I dump Blackwood in this case, agreeing all 4NT after a minor suit bid is invitational to 6NT?

[wyman]

Yeah 4N quant. Suit Agreement shouldn't be blackwood. So you can FSF and bid clubs to set clubs if you have interest in a club slam.

[Cyberyeti]

Alternatively you can agree either

a) that if you wanted to agree diamonds you'd 4SF and raise diamonds, then 4♦ is ace asking in clubs so 4N is quant

b)4♣ is ace asking in clubs so 4N is quant

[steve2005]

dont know your hand so making assumptions
have 4♠ if you had more you would still be interested in ♠slam
have 0-2 ♦ or would be open to ♦slam
have 0-3 ♣ or would be open to ♣ slam. Even with 3 should be open to ♣slam in case opener has 5♣
must have 4♥ then if you had more would have bid 1♥
many people would bid 1♥ with 4-4 ♥/♠

on this auction opener could still have 4♥ so should bid 2♥ fourth suit forcing

In other words you might still have a fit so why not investigate

probably wrong as you know what happens when you assume

[mikl_plkcc]

 steve2005, on 2012-June-23, 15:19, said:

dont know your hand so making assumptions
have 4♠ if you had more you would still be interested in ♠slam
have 0-2 ♦ or would be open to ♦slam
have 0-3 ♣ or would be open to ♣ slam. Even with 3 should be open to ♣slam in case opener has 5♣
must have 4♥ then if you had more would have bid 1♥
many people would bid 1♥ with 4-4 ♥/♠

on this auction opener could still have 4♥ so should bid 2♥ fourth suit forcing

In other words you might still have a fit so why not investigate

probably wrong as you know what happens when you assume

P.S. I missed a very important part: I open 1♣ holding 4-4 in the minors. Therefore, opener suggests a hand about 5 ♦s and 4 ♣s.

Not rebidding ♠ = no 6 ♠s
Not raising ♦ = no 3 ♦s
Not raising ♣ = no 4 ♣s
Not responding ♥ = either 5+ ♠s or (4♠s and no 4 ♥s)

Therefore, responder's possible shapes after 4SF are:
5=3=2=3
5=4=1=3
5=4=2=2
5=5=1=0
5=5=0=1

(The hand was actually 5=3=2=3)

[fromageGB]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-23, 09:58, said:

a) that if you wanted to agree diamonds you'd 4SF and raise diamonds, then 4♦ is ace asking in clubs so 4N is quant

Something like this, but if you are using kickback with 4♦ being ace asking in clubs, that 4NT will be taken as ace asking in spades. I'd 4SF 2♥, then (assuming partner does not bid spades) bid 4NT quantitative. If I was interested in spade slam without having support, I would have jumped to 4NT immediately. So 4SF then 4NT is something else, ie natural.

For me, an immediate 4♦ is ace ask in clubs, and immediate 4♥ is ace ask in diamonds. So 4SF then bid ♦ is forcing but implying not good enough to ace ask immediately.

[Cyberyeti]

 fromageGB, on 2012-June-25, 10:17, said:

Something like this, but if you are using kickback with 4♦ being ace asking in clubs, that 4NT will be taken as ace asking in spades. I'd 4SF 2♥, then (assuming partner does not bid spades) bid 4NT quantitative. If I was interested in spade slam without having support, I would have jumped to 4NT immediately. So 4SF then 4NT is something else, ie natural.

For me, an immediate 4♦ is ace ask in clubs, and immediate 4♥ is ace ask in diamonds. So 4SF then bid ♦ is forcing but implying not good enough to ace ask immediately.

Not a problem for me, if I wanted to auto-agree spades, I'd have started with a strong jump shift.

[andy_h]

Agree with steve2005. With all of the bidding space in the world, I don't really understand how a hand wants to quant now when you haven't even tried to search for a fit. Last I checked, opener could be 3154 or 0454 or 55/64/74/65 in the minors! Not to mention the people who open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with 45 (a style that I hate) then opener can have many more possibilities.

[fromageGB]

Maybe their methods are such that the first 2 opener bids describe all that responder needs to know, such as balanced hand 2254 and a 12-14 count. Now responder simply wants a small slam if this is upper end.

I don't know, but it is a valid question - how would you bid a quantitative small slam ask? Rephrase - how would you use "all the bidding space in the world" ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 fromageGB, on 2012-June-26, 05:35, said:

Maybe their methods are such that the first 2 opener bids describe all that responder needs to know, such as balanced hand 2254 and a 12-14 count. Now responder simply wants a small slam if this is upper end.

I don't know, but it is a valid question - how would you bid a quantitative small slam ask? Rephrase - how would you use "all the bidding space in the world" ?

I believe it has been answered.
4NT next should be Quant. and not RKC.
For 4NT to be RKC, you agree trumps AFTER going thru 4th suit GF.

For example:
1D - 1S
2C - 2H! ( 4th suit GF )
3C - 4NT = Quant whereas 4C would be suit agreement

[fromageGB]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-June-26, 08:30, said:

For 4NT to be RKC, you agree trumps AFTER going thru 4th suit GF.

Fair enough in general, but after 2♥4SF 3♦ 4♣ 5♣ it may be a bit late for 4NT. Many people play "Blackwood agrees the last bid suit".

[JLOGIC]

Quant 4N does not apply when you can force at the 2 level.

1S 2H
3D 4N

is clearly quantitative since there is no 2 level force.

Here, 4N is blackwood for clubs because you can (and as others have noted, would always want to) force with 2H.

Now, if it goes

1D 1S
2C 2H
3C 4N

we are back to this being quantitative, as you cannot force at the 2 level and have not agreed a suit. If you want to keycard in clubs you must start with 4C over 3C in that auction.

However, if it goes

1D 1S
2C 2H
2S 4N

4N is keycard for spades, as 2N would be forcing, and a quant 4N would bid 2N then 4N and get a chance to learn about partners hand.

This is a relatively simple concept that people mess up all the time. You do not want to have to bid a quantitative 4N unless you have absolutely no other option (eg, you have no fit that you want to show, and your only other bid would have to be 3N, which you are too strong for).

Some people will say "but why wouldn't you create a force, then raise clubs, blah blah, with keycard for clubs". You COULD do this, but you don't want to be forced to have to do this. You will give away info about declarers shape, give them a chance to double or not double artificial bids, force partner to cuebid, and sometimes you are just ready to keycard. You might even get foiled by partner if he bids 5C over your 4C support bid at some point and you can't keycard.

The point is, sometimes you are ready to keycard, and in those cases you won't want to give the opponents info. This is fine, and not bad bridge. If you have a force at the 2 level available, you can do this. Losing this luxury only occurs when a quantitative 4N has no other reasonable bid they can make, which occurs when their other option would be to bid 3N, or to bid some suit. When you can make a forcing 2N bid, or a 4th suit forcing bid, 4N is not needed as quantiative so you have the luxury of using it as keycard. It is not the other way around.

Likewise, getting more info from partner when you have a quant 4N bid is ALWAYS a plus, since you might have a fit that you can establish. (like here, if you have 5 spades or 3 clubs, that might be your fit, assuming you are 5323. It would be good to know about that. You could also have a diamond fit).

[JLOGIC]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-23, 09:58, said:

Alternatively you can agree either

a) that if you wanted to agree diamonds you'd 4SF and raise diamonds, then 4♦ is ace asking in clubs so 4N is quant

b)4♣ is ace asking in clubs so 4N is quant

You act like it is some great thing to be able to bid 4N quantitative. You would simply never want to bid that. Quantitative 4Ns are not bids you want to make, they're bids that sometimes you have to make for lack of anything better to do.

[lalldonn]

upvote jlogic on this one

[Cyberyeti]

 JLOGIC, on 2012-June-27, 10:01, said:

You act like it is some great thing to be able to bid 4N quantitative. You would simply never want to bid that. Quantitative 4Ns are not bids you want to make, they're bids that sometimes you have to make for lack of anything better to do.

If I have a flat decent 16 opposite a 15-17 notrump (or in my case 19 opp a 12-14), I'm perfectly happy bidding a quantitative 4N, it seems to get me where I want to be most of the time, and without giving too much away about declarer's hand.

It's not a bid I use that often, but it has its place.

[Statto]

Partner's range is still quite wide, and you have plenty of bidding space. Why would you ever want to bid 4NT here, whatever it means?