[RunemPard]

Hello,

My partner and I are currently playing better minors using inverted replies. My inquiry is that I am debating trying a 12-14 weak NT. Having a direct jump to 3♣/3♦ could cause some bidding issues.

If my partner is sitting on a hand like this...

♠: AJxx
♥: KJxx
♦: AQ
♣: xxx

And I want to make an inverted raise to 3♣, the only thing my partner knows is that I most likely have 5 ♣, and 6-9 HCP.

The bidding will go, 1♣-3♣

My partner certainly does have a nice 15 HCP opposite 5 ♣ in this situation. 3NT may not hurt anything even with 21 HCP, however, what if we are looking at a part-score in MP? Do many of you think this could become a problem at times using a weak NT with inverted raises?

If so, does this sound like a plausible solution?

We play 10+ HCP 2/1 bids, 2NT is currently a balanced 17-19 HCP jump raise, which honestly, we do not have much use for. I was thinking that if we choose to adapt a weak NT, we can keep our inverted raises by turning 2NT into the lower limit of 6-7 HCP for clubs, and 3C be 8-9 HCP showing more support to a 15-17 NT.

Is this worth a try? I don't see it as being a huge issue, being an uncommon bid, but I would like to hear what you all have to say.

Many thanks,

Don

[Stephen Tu]

If you are going to be playing weak NTs, then you should probably make an agreement not to make an inverted jump with a hand that would invite game opposite a strong NT. When playing strong NTs, I usually make inverted single raise with good 10+, but when playing wk NT I make a single raise with 9+. This tends to have the effect of always getting to 3nt with 15 opposite 9 and a minor fit, which is slightly aggressive, but often has play. This way, your jump raise is limited to 8, and a strong NT can pass somewhat comfortably; 17 opposite 8 may want to be there, but rest of field may not invite with 8, and at least they are not in game. At MP this might be bad if field is making 120/150 and you are only making 110/130, but that's life if you are playing anti-field. Sometimes the opps have a suit to run and playing the minor works out better.

With 18+ you still have an issue, there are various solutions for this, depending on how weak and wide ranging you want your jump raise to be. If you want to split the 0-8 range up, I'd rather give up the minor-suit jump shifts (1d-3c, 1c-2d), than 2nt. I'd rather keep 2nt as a GF balanced hand, no major; playing it as 13-15/18-19 will be far more common than your 17-19 treatment, though still not particularly common if taking all the 4cM hands out (though I once heard a podcast with Kantar suggesting allowing 4cM in 2nt with a way to unwind the 4-4 major fit). Or you can just go ahead and bid 3m somewhat wide ranging, and 18-19 can use a hack suggested by Grant Baze (according to Jeff Goldsmith's excellent site); after 3m, next step says basically "I have 18-19 and want to bid 3nt, do I have a prayer", after which 4m says no, 3X says yes, but declare from your side, 3nt = I'll take a shot at it. Obv has defect of sometimes getting to 4m -1, but opposite weak distribution sometimes 4m makes when 3nt has no play.

For similar reasons, the 1nt response to 1m should probably be 5-8, with 9+ bidding inverted raise or the other minor. Then 15-17 can pass. This is how K-S handles it. Playing 6-10 like in std when partner will frequently have a strong NT is a recipe for getting to 2nt with 15 opposite 6-7 and going down1, which is daft.

[RunemPard]

Stephen Tu, on 2012-May-24, 14:11, said:

If you are going to be playing weak NTs, then you should probably make an agreement not to make an inverted jump with a hand that would invite game opposite a strong NT. When playing strong NTs, I usually make inverted raise with good 10+, but when playing wk NT I make an inverted raise with 9+. This tends to have the effect of always getting to 3nt with 15 opposite 9 and a minor fit, which is slightly aggressive, but often has play. This way, your inverted raise is limited to 8, and a strong NT can pass somewhat comfortably; 17 opposite 8 may want to be there, but rest of field may not invite with 8, and at least they are not in game. At MP this might be bad if field is making 120/150 and you are only making 110/130, but that's life if you are playing anti-field. Sometimes the opps have a suit to run and playing the minor works out better.

With 18+ you still have an issue, there are various solutions for this, depending on how weak and wide ranging you want your jump raise to be. If you want to split the 0-8 range up, I'd rather give up the minor-suit jump shifts (1d-3c, 1c-2d), than 2nt. I'd rather keep 2nt as a GF balanced hand, no major; playing it as 13-15/18-19 will be far more common than your 17-19 treatment, though still not particularly common if taking all the 4cM hands out (though I once heard a podcast with Kantar suggesting allowing 4cM in 2nt with a way to unwind the 4-4 major fit). Or you can just go ahead and bid 3m somewhat wide ranging, and 18-19 can use a hack suggested by Grant Baze (according to Jeff Goldsmith's excellent site); after 3m, next step says basically "I have 18-19 and want to bid 3nt, do I have a prayer", after which 4m says no, 3X says yes, but declare from your side, 3nt = I'll take a shot at it. Obv has defect of sometimes getting to 4m -1, but opposite weak distribution sometimes 4m makes when 3nt has no play.

For similar reasons, the 1nt response to 1m should probably be 5-8, with 9+ bidding inverted raise or the other minor. Then 15-17 can pass. This is how K-S handles it. Playing 6-10 like in std when partner will frequently have a strong NT is a recipe for getting to 2nt with 15 opposite 6-7 and going down1, which is daft.

I do have a few things to bring up more. One of the points of my suggestion to move my 6-7 inverted jump raises to 2NT is to allow for the 15-17 NT to stop in a NT contract at MP. Sure, we might go down 1 sitting with a bad 21 HCP fit, however, we most likely have an 8 card club suit to help the cause. My concern is that by jumping to 3C with 6-9 HCP and 5 clubs, we put a lot of stress on the 15-17 NT 1C opening. How can a nice 16-17 tell the difference between a 6 HCP minimum and a 9 HCP max? The contract may be wrong sided, but I still like this better at MP.

The only problem I see with your suggestion about replacing minor jump raises is that it somewhat defeats the purpose of an inverted jump. 1C-2D leaves room for opponents to bid majors at the 2 level.

I also have other methods for showing a 13-15 or 18-19 balanced hand than jumping to 2NT. If I cannot bid a 2/1 in same suit, I can do a 2D, 2H, or 2S raise.

[Stephen Tu]

RunemPard, on 2012-May-24, 14:28, said:

I do have a few things to bring up more. One of the points of my suggestion to move my 6-7 inverted jump raises to 2NT is to allow for the 15-17 NT to stop in a NT contract at MP. Sure, we might go down 1 sitting with a bad 21 HCP fit, however, we most likely have an 8 card club suit to help the cause.

The problem with this is that the inverted raise is wide ranging distribution. If you are saying that auctions are going to be 1c-2nt-pass, there are hands where responder has 6+ clubs, not just 5, and with stiff/void/weakness in a major, where 3m just plays better. Opener is playing a guessing game, and in my view it's a narrow target, definitely wrong at IMP IMO, and unclear if really a net gainer at MP.

Although the phenomenon of 1m-3m being bad MP wise does occur, in my experience it's not particularly common and is a probably pretty small loss. Responder has at least one 4 cd major A LOT of the time. With no 4 cd major and weak, your RHO has already bid something a lot of the rest. Reasonably often 3m makes 130 and NT makes only 120, or even only 90, to make up some of the 120s vs. 110s.

Quote

My concern is that by jumping to 3C with 6-9 HCP and 5 clubs, we put a lot of stress on the 15-17 NT 1C opening. How can a nice 16-17 tell the difference between a 6 HCP minimum and a 9 HCP max?

Well like I said don't put 9 HCP in there. Then 15-17 doesn't care, he just passes, since game isn't particularly likely or won't be bid at other tables.

Quote

The only problem I see with your suggestion about replacing minor jump raises is that it somewhat defeats the purpose of an inverted jump. 1C-2D leaves room for opponents to bid majors at the 2 level.

Fair enough, it's one reason I don't bother to do this.

Quote

I also have other methods for showing a 13-15 or 18-19 balanced hand than jumping to 2NT. If I cannot bid a 2/1 in same suit, I can do a 2D, 2H, or 2S raise.

You didn't mention how you structured your jump shifts, so answered in context of common weak or strong natural jump shifts. If you are using these as artificial of course you have more options on how to structure things.

[Cyberyeti]

We use 2N and 3♣ as raises in response to 1♣ so get a bit more definition.

[RunemPard]

Thoughts on using something like this? With a 15-17 NT and 12-14 NT...

1♣: 3+♣ (12-19 HCP)
-2♣: 4+♣ (10-16 HCP)
-2♦: 10-11 NT (8-9 w/ 12-14 NT?) invite denying ♣ (possible 4 card ♥/♠) OR (17+ HCP) NT
-2♥: 5+♥ (17+ HCP)
-2♠: 5+♠ (17+ HCP)
-2N: 5+♣ (6/7 HCP)
-3♣: 5+♣ (8/9 HCP)

Sadly, this doesn't work out the same for a 1D opening.

1♦: 3+♦ (12-19 HCP)
-2♦: 4+♦ (10-16 HCP)
-2♥: 5+♥ (17+ HCP)
-2♠: 5+♠ (17+ HCP)
-2N: 5+♦ (6/7 HCP)
-3♣: (17+ HCP) NT (4cM possible)
-3♦: 5+♦ (8/9 HCP)

I lose the NT invite, but keep a SJS for balanced strong hands, however, a 2/1 ♣ bid is still there. It may not happen often, but the 1♣-2♦ may also remove 4th seats ability to accurately overbid diamonds, hearts, or spades.

[Quantumcat]

Another alternative is criss-cross minors, lots of way to use it but I like this best, for opening weak 1NT's:

1♣
--------2♣ = 10-12 HCP, invite opposite a normal unbalanced hand
--------2♦ = weak invitation with clubs (7-9 HCP) OR completely gameforce (13+ HCP)
--------3♣ = weak, 0-6 HCP

Same for 1♦ opening, but swap 2♦ for 3♣ for the same effect.

First benefit is you always know what to do as opener with whatever hand you may have. Second, the opponents won't have any idea what sort of hand opener has, and can't count points to defend accurately like they would against the auction 1NT-3NT. Third, with the multi nature of the 1♣-2♦ response, the opponents don't know whether they should come in to compete for the 2 or 3-level, or pass because you might have game values or super-game values (e.g. opener has a strong NT and responder has a 15-count) and they are about to get doubled.