[gwnn]

What do you think is the best skip bid regulation if you wanted to write one?

The Dutch one goes something like this:
1. Any opening bid on the 2 level or higher, or any skip bid, must be accompanied by a warning, described here:
a) With bidding boxes, you need to lay down the stop card so as both opponents can see it. If the stop card is missing, you should place your bid upside down (?!) and then turn them right side up.
b) Without bidding boxes, you should verbally announce the bid by saying 'stop!'.
2. After any bid described by 1., the next player should wait about 10 seconds before making his or her call.
3. None of this applies to screens.

This seems slightly weird to me - what does 2. say? I can read it in two different ways: either that you need to wait 10 seconds after any jump bid/2+ level opening bid (i.e. described by the first line), or that you need to wait 10 seconds after any jump bid/2+ opening bid if RHO made a proper warning. Furthermore, what's up with bidding upside down and when are you supposed to turn over the bidding cards? And what's the point of the stop card if you are not going to remove it? I don't get it.

What happened in this case was that my LHO just said 'stop' and made his jump overcall and my partner passed almost instantly. The director was called and he ruled that regardless of the use of the stop card, you always must wait 10 seconds. I asked him what he's basing this on because according to me this is written nowhere. He showed me this rule and my Dutch wasn't good enough to decipher the regulation on the spot and just believed him (apparently, he believes rule #2 means that the description of #1 refers just to the jump bid/2+ level opening part and not the stop card - in this case why use the stop card at all? surely we all can see that it is a jump overcall no?). For people who do not trust my translation above, this is the original text:

Spoiler

Artikel 10
Stopregel
1. Tenzij het RB anders voorschrijft, moet een openingsbod van 2 of hoger,
alsmede ieder sprongbod worden voorafgegaan door een waarschuwing als
volgt:
a) als gebruik gemaakt wordt van bidding boxes door de stopkaart voor beide
tegenstanders zichtbaar op tafel te leggen; als de stopkaart ontbreekt, dient
de uitgenomen stapel biedkaarten eerst ondersteboven op tafel te worden
gelegd, en vervolgens te worden omgedraaid;
b) als geen bidding boxes worden gebruikt: door het bod te laten voorafgaan
door het woord 'stop'.
2. Na een bod als in lid 1 omschreven is de volgende speler verplicht ca 10
seconden te wachten voor hij een bieding doet. Elke bieding binnen deze periode
kan als een ongeoorloofde inlichting worden aangemerkt.
3. Dit artikel is niet van toepassing bij wedstrijden waarbij tafelschermen worden
gebruikt.

[Vampyr]

The best, I think, is for the skip bidder to hold the card out for ten seconds and then put it away. This is easiest for everyone, and besides preventing insta-bids, it makes it clear when there is a really lengthy hesitation. (Provided the bidder holds the card out for the full ten seconds).

[gnasher]

For the mechanics, I would start with the English regulations, and modify them as follows:

"Before making a jump bid (ie a bid at a higher level than the minimum in that denomination)stop bid, a player should place the Stop card in front of him, then place his call as usual, and eventually remove the Stop card. His LHO should not call until the Stop card has been removed.
The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next playerother players time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.
After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. During this pause he should ask any questions that would normally be asked by a player considering action. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.
If an opponent fails to pause as required by this regulation, the next player (ie the partner of the stop-bidder) should not call until after the end of the mandated pause."

Defining the categories of bid that require a Stop warning is not trivial. The English rule, as in some other areas, appears to value simplicity over efficacy. I would prefer something like the Norwegian rules, where (as I understand it) a stop is required in competitive auctions at the two- and three-level. And I would exclude jumps in uncontested auctions after the first round.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-June-05, 08:00

[gwnn]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2012-June-05, 07:57, said:

The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next playerother players time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

Very much agree with this bit. I've surely told this story before, but I've had an opponent instapass despite my partner still having the stop card out, and then ask for a UI ruling against me when I took my time. I would go so far as to explicitly write into the regulations that opps forfeit their right to redress in such circumstances. (The current German regulations spell out that the side making the stop bid can forfeit some rights by not or improperly using the stop card.)

[Fluffy]

gwnn, on 2012-June-05, 08:02, said:

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

To remind you that you have to stop, since you might be thinking of a salami sandwich looking to auto pass for the rest of the auction.

BTW, I also think there doesn't need to be a jump for a stop to be neccesary, bids such as 2♠-double-3♠ clearly need a hesitation period.

However it is also very important that the stop card is used always and under very clear rules, low level pairs have been known to show values "forgetting" to use the stop card as oposed to showing weakness if the stop card is shown. Letting a pair using their own judgement about if it might be used or not goes into 2-way bids.

[gnasher]

gwnn, on 2012-June-05, 08:02, said:

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

It reduces the number of disputes about whether someone paused for long enough.

[Bbradley62]

How about a mandatory(!) procedural penalty against any player who bids while a stop card is displayed? If you're gonna make rules, give them teeth!

[blackshoe]

Mandatory? Why bother? Club TDs, at least, will ignore the mandate when they feel like it, which will probably be most of the time. We already have mandatory PPs for ZT violations, and those get ignored regularly at levels at least up to Regional (in the ACBL, I don't presume to speak for what happens in places I've not been).

[Jeremy69A]

I think issue 1 is making the regulation reasonably simple so requiring it whenever there is a jump means that it is hard for players to pretend they don't understand but it does exclude some non jump bids that require time and requires a wait in jump bid auctions where intervention is unlikely. In my view this state of imperfection is better than defining all the auctions where a stop is a good idea.

Issue 2 is what you do when players ignore the stop card. In my youth I've been known to let the card fall to the floor remarking that I won't be needing that any more but these days it would be conduct unbecoming. I think directors should be keener to enforce the procedure and impose some procedural penalties. This should perhaps be preceded by giving some warnings that tougher times are coming. The directors also need backing to do this from those in charge whether it is the club committee, the county or the national body.
If this occurs there will be some initial comment about directors being officious, The Laws and Ethics Committee being an interfering body of small minded people and the iniquity of events being decided by procedural penalties but after a little time and a healthy score of penalties players will modify their behaviour appropriately.

Yesterday in an event an auction on board 1 of the round went 1♥ No STOP 3♥. The 3♠ bid was on the table almost before the 3♥ bid. Nothing was said although when I then bid 4♥ the knowledge of the next player that the 3♠ was obvious not marginal might have helped him bid 4♠.
On the very next board I overcalled 2♥ with the SIOP card and the next hand paused for an entirely appropriate length of time. Partner bid STOP 4♥ and the next hand passed within 0.3 nanoseconds. A remark was now made to the effect that the STOP procedure was only being observed on one side of the table. The quick fire player got the point, observed the procedure for the rest of the match but sulked and ignored us also.
In my view it was just habit to ignore it at the club or wherever she played most of her bridge and no-one ever enforced it or commented on it. Of course in very many auctions it truly makes no difference and no-one really wants to call the director 11 times a session for this thus the authorities have got to take some tougher action.

[Vampyr]

gnasher, on 2012-June-05, 07:57, said:

During this pause he should ask any questions that would normally be asked by a player considering action.

A surprising number of players think that they cannot ask questions until the "Stop" card is removed. Sometimes after this happens I replay the "Stop" card, but it is always ignored.

Quote

If an opponent fails to pause as required by this regulation, the next player (ie the partner of the stop-bidder) should not call until after the end of the mandated pause."

Absolutely.

Quote

Defining the categories of bid that require a Stop warning is not trivial. The English rule, as in some other areas, appears to value simplicity over efficacy. I would prefer something like the Norwegian rules, where (as I understand it) a stop is required in competitive auctions at the two- and three-level. And I would exclude jumps in uncontested auctions after the first round.

Jeremy's point is a good one, but I agree with Andy here. This procedure, by the way, is used in parts of Eastern Europe as well.

[Vampyr]

Jeremy69A, on 2012-June-05, 09:34, said:

In my youth I've been known to let the card fall to the floor remarking that I won't be needing that any more but these days it would be conduct unbecoming.

Must admit I do this sometimes. Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

[Mbodell]

gwnn, on 2012-June-05, 08:02, said:

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

To wake your partner up.

I agree that the only procedure with stop cards that makes any sense to me is the one where the skip bidder leaves the stop card out for the length of the in tempo pause and only then removes the stop card. There can still be a dispute on if the card was removed prematurely, but the partner who's turn it isn't to act can time and mediate that. I nearly always already count all pauses at the table when I'm not actively deep in thought.

[Fluffy]

another thing that would make sense is to put the stop card on the bidding space of LHO opponent, he would find it harder to ignore it.

It would also help beginners to understand that stop is mainly aimed to LHO, not to partner

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-05, 20:11, said:

Must admit I do this sometimes. Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

What's the point of that?

The purpose of the mandatory skip is to mask whether or not LHO needed to think, to avoid giving UI to RHO. During that pause, LHO is expected to think or pretend to think, not look disinterested. If RHO can see that he was trying to bid and you delayed him, the purpose is defeated.

I always pause over a skip bid, although I doubt I actually last the full 10 seconds (I'm probably 5-7, I think). What worries me is that my attempt to appear to think is TOO blatant, and probably looks unnatural as a result. I have no idea what I really look like when I'm thinking, because I'm too busy thinking to notice my own unconscious mannerisms. I could observe others, but this seems to be very personal, everyone has their own ideosyncracies (my regular partner strokes his mustache when he goes into the tank).

I also stress over whether I'm able to maintain a good poker face when declarer is trying to guess whether to finesse or drop.

[jillybean]

gwnn, on 2012-June-05, 08:02, said:

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

Mbodell, on 2012-June-06, 00:21, said:

To wake your partner up.

This. Truely inattentive partners also need a glare along with the stop card.

[Lanor Fow]

and a kick under the table?

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2012-June-06, 09:31, said:

The purpose of the mandatory skip is to mask whether or not LHO needed to think, to avoid giving UI to RHO. During that pause, LHO is expected to think or pretend to think, not look disinterested. If RHO can see that he was trying to bid and you delayed him, the purpose is defeated.

I do it because I get annoyed.

Quote

I also stress over whether I'm able to maintain a good poker face when declarer is trying to guess whether to finesse or drop.

Yes. I think that leading and seeing a not-unexpected small card and then taking ages is borderline cheating. When I find that I have stopped to think in a situation like this, I am very careful not to look at either of my opponents.

[Bbradley62]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-05, 20:11, said:

Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

At my table, you'd be asking to see how my cup of coffee looks all over your shirt.

[Vampyr]

Bbradley62, on 2012-June-06, 19:33, said:

At my table, you'd be asking to see how my cup of coffee looks all over your shirt.

But you would never attempt to bid while I was holding out a "Stop" card.