[jillybean]

for eg.
1N : 2♥
2♠: 5♣
5♥: ?

Does anyone have a specific King or other control ask bid here?

[Phil]

5♠ = signoff
5N = Q?
6♣ = specific Kings

[jillybean]

Thats simple, thanks!

[wyman]

Over all RKC/ERKC responses, we play 1st step is Q-ask and 2nd step is spec K's. ["step" means non-trump suit step]

This way like if hearts are trump:

4N - 5C;

5D = Q-ask
5S = confirms all KC, spec K, so p can show the SK with 5N.
5N/6C/6D asks for 3rd rd ctrl in S/C/D

[Fluffy]

so what is your rule if we are at an indeterminate level with an indeterminated fit for 5NT answering specific kings?

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2012-May-09, 04:59, said:

so what is your rule if we are at an indeterminate level with an indeterminated fit for 5NT answering specific kings?

That is the whole point. 5NT is not per se the specific king ask. Instead the first non-trump step that is not the queen ask asks for specific kings. If you play this in combination with Kickback then 5NT is only ever the SKA when spades is the agreed trump suit or after Exclusion. Better, this general rule also covers you for situations where the answer to Exclusion was 5NT or higher (eg 1♠ - 3♠; 5♦ - 5NT (2+♠Q): Now 6♣ = SKA. Notice that Phil's scheme is simply a special case of this general rule.

[JLOGIC]

Yep just think about it in steps. And heck, stop thinking about things as "king ask." Step 1=I am missing the trump Q but have all the keycards, Step 2= We have everything. These steps are bid around 5M being a signoff obv.

[JLOGIC]

In this auction you will actually have enough room to show all specific kings, but usually you won't. For instance.

1N 2D
2H 5D
5S

5N is Q ask, 6C is we have everything.

Over 6C, 6D is not a specific king, it is your only positive step between 6C and 6H. So it must say "I have something positive/extra about my hand, but not enough to drive to 7 given the information you've given me." Most hands will not be able to drive to 7 without a trick source, as partner will cater to us having KQJx of a side suit or w/e.

Logically, most typical for 6D would be having 1 king in a black suit in that auction.

But it is good to be thinking in these terms, steps 1 and 2 are not really "asks." No longer is blackwood used for one side to gain info and place the contract, blackwood can be used to show your exact hand also. For instance, if my hand is AKQxx of trumps and 2 aces and my partner knows my shape, I can simply blackwood and then bid step 2 and my partner will know my exact hand. Why? Because he knows we have all the keycards and the trump queen, meaning I have AKQ and 2 aces, given that he knows my exact shape that's a pretty good description.

If you're looking for a grand, both sides will have the same information, then they can delicately wiggle around looking for more features, or a hand that can count 13 can always just bid it.

[JLOGIC]

Here is another example from real life play:

KQJx Axx Axx xxx.

You open a 14-16 NT. Your partner bids 4D transfer, you bid 4H, he bids 4S keycard, you bid 5D 2 without the queen, he bids 6C. 6C is clasically "third round control ask" meaning, if you have the queen bid 7, a doubleton bid 6D (or I guess with 4 hearts and a doubleton bid 7).

But really, partner is not asking, he is showing. What can his hand be to bid this way? He has 6 hearts, and he has the AK of clubs, and the SA. Lets give him Ax KQJxxx x AKJx.

This is a very sensible way to bid for partner, since he has SHOWN his hand to us. We know he has the CK, we know he has 6 hearts, and we know he has the SA and KQ of hearts and the CA. He very likely has 4 clubs (with say Axx KQJxxx x AKJ he could not afford to bid this way). The CJ is a likely card for his bidding since he has asked us to bid 7 with the queen.

Anyways, if you are just thinking "partner asked for a third round control we don't have it" and we only have a 4333 14 count anyways, ugh, you have just missed your chance to bid a baby 7N.