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Biddign Style Question

#21 User is offline   brian_m 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 12:59

View PostArtK78, on 2012-March-19, 12:16, said:

Which one of us is British? I hope it is you, Brian, because it is certainly not me. :) My paralegal is British, but I don't think her sense of humor has rubbed off on me (yet).

C.C. Wei's team came on the scene about 40 years ago, since it was either during or just before my bridge-playing life started, which was in 1972. During my first year of playing, and even before setting foot inside of an ACBL club game, a friend of mine purchased the Goren-Wei Precision book. This was just after C.C. Wei and Ron Andersen had an 81% score in a regional pair game in NYC playing Precision. We learned the system and played it. It had a 13-15 1NT opening, which it referred to as a weak NT. 2 nonforcing Stayman, 2 forcing Stayman responses. 1 openings were 3+ cards, if I recall correctly. Any hands of less than 16 points that did not fit into a 1NT, 2 (6+clubs or 5-4 in clubs and a major) and 2 (4414 or 4405 shapes, with short diamonds and no 5 card major) were opened with 1. Since all hands of less than 16 HCP with doubleton diamonds and without a 5-card major were either opened 1NT or 2, and since all hands with less than 2 diamonds were opened either 1M or 2 or 2, only those rare hands with 3 diamonds which did not fit any other opening had to be opened 1. For example, a 1-4-3-5 hand with weak clubs and strong diamonds would be opened 1 (x KQJx AKx xxxxx). But, for the most part, a 1 opening in that version of Precision did have 4 diamonds. Just as a 1 opening in most Standard methods rarely has less than 4 diamonds (4432 being the only shape that qualifies for a 3-card 1 opening in Standard unless you are allowed to open either minor suit with (43)33 shape).

I know I don't have a copy of that Precision book anymore. If I remember correctly, I loaned it to someone and never got it back. I did find my copy of the original Romex book yesterday, but that is another matter entirely.


Yes, I'm the ex-pat Limey.

I thought Wei's team was active in the early 1960s, but it was actually the 1969 Bermuda Bowl where the Taiwanese team achieved their shock second place (according to Wikipedia, at least). The Goren book on Precision that I have is one with (AFAIR) a red cover, I don't recall it having Wei as a co-author. I am as near certain as I can be without finding the actual book that in that writeup, Goren advocates a 12-15 1NT opener, 1 as 4+, and the rest of it more or less as you say. Balanced 11 counts were supposed to be passed. Without checking, I can't remember what the recommended opener was on your x KQJx AKx xxxxx hand.

I never really played Goren's or Wei's write up in any case, as I learned Precision while still living in England (about the same time as you did) it was Terence Reese's tweaked version of Blue Team Precision that was the widely available writeup.
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#22 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 21:12

Swap the and and there are probably more people claiming that a 2 opener denies a 5-card major. But after 2-3-3-4 with a 5-6 we have found many a 4 game that the rest of the field has missed (two in the last week). Precision has moved on, and so has bidding in general.
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#23 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 01:15

View PostStatto, on 2012-March-19, 21:12, said:

Precision has moved on, and so has bidding in general.


How does Precision now bid -
1. A 4441 hand pattern 11-15 HCP (the singleton anything else except )?
2. A 4441 hand pattern 16+ HCP (the singleton anything else except )?
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#24 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 02:33

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 01:15, said:

How does Precision now bid -
1. A 4441 hand pattern 11-15 HCP (the singleton anything else except )?
2. A 4441 hand pattern 16+ HCP (the singleton anything else except )?


1. Opens 1D - though some will open it 1H (playing with 4 card majors, but 5 is the standard I gather)

2. It depends. Most will have some way of self splintering or showing a 4414 in a GF auction
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#25 User is offline   brian_m 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 02:52

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 01:15, said:

How does Precision now bid -
1. A 4441 hand pattern 11-15 HCP (the singleton anything else except )?
2. A 4441 hand pattern 16+ HCP (the singleton anything else except )?


1) The overwhelming majority will open 1 (I say overwhelming majority because there are a few gadgets around, and some will open 1NT with 13-15 (assuming that's their 1NT range). As regards continuations if you do open 1, then as you'll have seen from the rest of this thread, opinions differ. :)

2) Strong 4441 hands have been a problem ever since strong 1 systems were invented. I can think of at least four different methods that I've used with them at one time or another. My favourite is to use the Cambridge 1 complex (there's more than one version of that, too!). In the version I play, 1-1-1 shows a normal 1 rebid OR some balanced ranges OR any 4441 shape.
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#26 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 03:05

a 16+ 4441 hand is one of the easier hands in precision to bid. You just open 1 and reopen with a double after your LHO bids your singleton :)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#27 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 04:17

View PostCthulhu D, on 2012-March-20, 02:33, said:

1. Opens 1D - though some will open it 1H (playing with 4 card majors, but 5 is the standard I gather)
2. It depends. Most will have some way of self splintering or showing a 4414 in a GF auction


This doesn’t help me anything. The problem is not the opening bid, but the continuation bidding. How does the opening bidder get the 4441 message across?

In the post below, this was one of the ways I used to show a 4441 max.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-19, 08:07, said:

I’m sorry but the only guy I agree with here is brian_m. If you are playing Precision, I don’t see how you can open the suit first. How do you bid a 4441 hand with 14-15 HCP (max)? After 1, partner makes the expected response and now you jump to 2? How do you think partner is going to interpret the bid? He will understand 4144 (singleton ) and 14-15 HCP (or 13-15 depending on your style). If you are playing Precision, you need to open the suit first and then jump bid in second time round.


I can live with brian_m’s suggestion of opening 1NT if your hand falls into the 13-15 HCP range. The corollary here would be opening 1 and possibly bidding 1NT with a singleton when partner responds 1 and you have 11-12 HCP.

View Postbrian_m, on 2012-March-20, 02:52, said:

1) The overwhelming majority will open 1 (I say overwhelming majority because there are a few gadgets around, and some will open 1NT with 13-15 (assuming that's their 1NT range). As regards continuations if you do open 1, then as you'll have seen from the rest of this thread, opinions differ. :)
2) Strong 4441 hands have been a problem ever since strong 1 systems were invented. I can think of at least four different methods that I've used with them at one time or another. My favourite is to use the Cambridge 1 complex (there's more than one version of that, too!). In the version I play, 1-1-1 shows a normal 1 rebid OR some balanced ranges OR any 4441 shape.


However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1 1 ? distorts your hand pattern. I have seen Precision players moving these hand types out of the 1 opener into the 2 bid, Multi style. But this also gets messy when you have to show the singleton on level 4 (all depends on how the bidding has progressed).

FWIW the Precision players using the 2 bid as Multi style have changed their responses as follows:
1. 2 = artificial, 0-13 HCP, no interest in game unless one of the strong hand patterns has been opened. This is basically Pass/Correct whenever opener has a weak 2 in or .
2. 2 = artificial, 14+ HCP, game interest if opener is in the upper end of the weak 2 bid.
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#28 User is offline   brian_m 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 06:42

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 04:17, said:


<...>
However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1 1 ? distorts your hand pattern. I have seen Precision players moving these hand types out of the 1 opener into the 2 bid, Multi style. But this also gets messy when you have to show the singleton on level 4 (all depends on how the bidding has progressed).

FWIW the Precision players using the 2 bid as Multi style have changed their responses as follows:
1. 2 = artificial, 0-13 HCP, no interest in game unless one of the strong hand patterns has been opened. This is basically Pass/Correct whenever opener has a weak 2 in or .
2. 2 = artificial, 14+ HCP, game interest if opener is in the upper end of the weak 2 bid.


I used to use what was called "Multi Twos in Precision" - that was what it was called when licenced by the EBU, AFAIR - to show the strong three suiters. In this setup, all of 2, 2, 2 and 2NT openers were multi-way. I think the EBU made that scheme illegal at some point.

What I prefer now is that 1-1-1 forces responder to bid 1. Opener's rebids are then 1NT = a normal 1 rebid, 2 of a suit = 4441 suit below the shortage and 16-19, 3 of a suit shows 20-23, and so on. The NT rebids except 1NT are used to show balanced hands, combining those with the direct NT rebids after 1-1 you can show 2 point ranges all the way from 20-21 upwards.
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#29 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 07:17

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 04:17, said:

This doesn’t help me anything. The problem is not the opening bid, but the continuation bidding. How does the opening bidder get the 4441 message across?

My strong club system is not Precision (1 is up to 17 and promises 4+ diamonds) but opposite a weak Responder I just bid suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown. Opener can then make a try if game is still in the picture. If Responder is stronger then the shape will usually be relayed out.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 04:17, said:

However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1 1 ? distorts your hand pattern.

I use the sequence 1 - 1 - 1 to show either an unbalanced game force or a 3-suited hand with 18+ hcp. If Responder has a maximum negative then a Roman Club-style structure is used. If Responder is minimum then a scramble method is employed. If Responder has enough to game-force over 1 then Opener will initiate relays.
(-: Zel :-)
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#30 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 07:43

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-20, 07:17, said:

My strong club system is not Precision (1 is up to 17 and promises 4+ diamonds) but opposite a weak Responder I just bid suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown. Opener can then make a try if game is still in the picture. If Responder is stronger then the shape will usually be relayed out.


I use the sequence 1 - 1 - 1 to show either an unbalanced game force or a 3-suited hand with 18+ hcp. If Responder has a maximum negative then a Roman Club-style structure is used. If Responder is minimum then a scramble method is employed. If Responder has enough to game-force over 1 then Opener will initiate relays.


So the 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern falls into your 1 opening? That’s fine if you have a 4-card suit. How do you deal with 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern and a singleton ?

After a 1 opening, I presume 1 shows the weak responder which kicks in the sequence "bidding 4-card suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown?"
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#31 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 07:54

This discussion is starting to get interesting.

View Postbrian_m, on 2012-March-20, 02:52, said:

1) The overwhelming majority will open 1 (I say overwhelming majority because there are a few gadgets around, and some will open 1NT with 13-15 (assuming that's their 1NT range). As regards continuations if you do open 1, then as you'll have seen from the rest of this thread, opinions differ. :)

2) Strong 4441 hands have been a problem ever since strong 1 systems were invented. I can think of at least four different methods that I've used with them at one time or another. My favourite is to use the Cambridge 1 complex (there's more than one version of that, too!). In the version I play, 1-1-1 shows a normal 1 rebid OR some balanced ranges OR any 4441 shape.


Regarding your point 1 above what is your gadget? You have already said you open 1NT if the 4441 hand pattern is within your NT range. But what if it isn't? What do you do now? Do you pass with 11-12 HCP or do you employ the gadget? Let's hear what the gadget is.

Regarding your point 2, kindly post the detail here for the benefit of others as well. Start with your favourite, the Cambridge complex that you use (forget the variations). I would love to hear what the other 3 methods are that you have used in the past. Somewhere amongst all that I can optimise my own methods for the 4441 hand pattern.

Thank you.
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#32 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 08:08

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 07:43, said:

So the 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern falls into your 1 opening? That’s fine if you have a 4-card suit. How do you deal with 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern and a singleton ?

I open it 1 and either rebid 1NT (15-17) over a negative 1 or use a specialist rebid over a positive response (eg 1 - 1 - 2NT = 4414 and 15-17).


View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 07:43, said:

After a 1 opening, I presume 1 shows the weak responder which kicks in the sequence "bidding 4-card suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown?"

1 is a relay with the stronger (invite or better) hands. 1NT is used to show a heart suit in the up-the-line bidding sequences. Pretty much any response other than 1 is weak.
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#33 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 08:21

I am pretty sure that Wei's original book had 1=4+ while Goren's did not.

Anyway, I open 1 and rebid 2 with this hand.
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#34 User is offline   brian_m 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 10:51

View Post32519, on 2012-March-20, 07:54, said:

This discussion is starting to get interesting.



Regarding your point 1 above what is your gadget? You have already said you open 1NT if the 4441 hand pattern is within your NT range. But what if it isn't? What do you do now? Do you pass with 11-12 HCP or do you employ the gadget? Let's hear what the gadget is.

Regarding your point 2, kindly post the detail here for the benefit of others as well. Start with your favourite, the Cambridge complex that you use (forget the variations). I would love to hear what the other 3 methods are that you have used in the past. Somewhere amongst all that I can optimise my own methods for the 4441 hand pattern.

Thank you.



No, I didn't say that I personally would open 1NT with 4441 shape. In fact, I don't play a balanced 1NT opener. All my 11-15 balanced hands are in 1, The gadget I use for a 1NT opener is called the Aveyard 1NT, it came out (in the UK) in the early 1980s, AFAIR. A 1NT opener shows 11-15 and 1) a 4441 or 5440 shape, always short 2) 5+ and a 4 card major 3) 6+

Over our 1 opener we play 1M natural and NON forcing, unless opener is maximum, and 2 and 2 are also artificial inquiries.


As regards the ways I've used to show three suiters, in order of my preference, they were

1) The Cambridge 1 as I posted earlier.

2) The multi twos with Precision. 2 was the standard Precision 2 or a weak 2 or 21-22 balanced, 2 was a weak 2 or 16-19 any 4441, 2 was a 3-level pre-empt in a minor or 20-23 any 4441, 2NT was the Sharif-style 3 opener or 24+ any 4441. That left room for Salisbury pre-empts, 3=both minors, 3 = one major, 3 = both majors and 3S = solid minor.

3) Wrap the strong 3-suiters into a multi 2, more or less as you (or someone) described previously.

4) Treat the better/only minor as a five card suit.


If you want all the continuations, I would have to try to find some old notes.
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