[Phil]

r/w, mps

void KQx Q9xxxxx KQx

(1♠) - 2♦ - (4♠) - x
(pass) - ?

[RunemPard]

Assuming my partner has a 4S holding with the Axxx or KJxx...

Counting 1 of my offsuit kings and a maybe 2nd depending on the holding.

Not too sure a pass will do much other than give them a top match. 4NT requesting an unbid 5 card or a rebid of my suit w/ my regular partner. (promising atleast 3 in all suits)

[JLOGIC]

5d, what am I missing?

[bigbenvic]

Depends on your agreements as to what the X is surely?

If his is a clear penalty X with no tolerance for your suit you have to pass (though with a 6-5 or better you can overrule that and bid on)

However with my main partner we used to play this as it's our hand and I've got a defensive-ish hand, do you want to sit the X? If not describe your hand some more (ie repeat suit show or side suit (4nt here shows 4+/5+ in the reds as 5♥ could be too high)

I'd be bidding 5♦ in that case.

[wank]

bigbenvic, on 2012-January-17, 21:14, said:

Depends on your agreements as to what the X is surely?

everyone of experty level plays this as t/o orientated.

[the hog]

5D. What else?

[Fluffy]

4NT for me would be more like 4-6 reds or perhaps 4-5 with good 5. I try to avoid 4-3 fits at the 5 level as much as possible, so 5♦ it is. Having ♦Q makes it more ovcious, with ♦Axxxxxx playing in hearts might have more appeal.

[bluecalm]

Looks like early candidate for wtp thread of the year 2012.
5D of course.

[whereagles]

JLOGIC, on 2012-January-17, 20:16, said:

5d, what am I missing?

huh.. that pard might have say

xxx
Axxx
x
AJTxx

Anyway, it's really good odds pard will have a 5-card suit, so 4NT for me.

[Phil]

bluecalm, on 2012-January-18, 05:19, said:

Looks like early candidate for wtp thread of the year 2012.
5D of course.

I thought so too but I am getting a wide cross section of views on this. Of players I respect, I am getting three passes, and one 6♦.

Thus the thread.

As an aside, what does a typical x look like?

[bluecalm]

Kx Axxxx Axx xxx, xx Axxx Ax Jxxxx (I think that one is minimum/marginal), AQx xxxxx Axx xx. In short: any hand with points which doesn't have convenient bid and in general wants partner to do something with a piece of shape.

Quote

. Of players I respect, I am getting three passes, and one 6♦.

I think some truly great players, especially older ones are used to penalty(ish) doubles here, if that is the case their pass is understandable.
I think this style is slowly dying (and rightfully so) but still you can play that and be better at bridge than I will ever be
6♦ is very surprising to me though.

[Phil]

bluecalm, on 2012-January-18, 09:40, said:

6♦ is very surprising to me though.

Edit - he misread the problem.

Pass - 3
5♦ - 2

[FrancesHinden]

wank, on 2012-January-17, 21:26, said:

everyone of experty level plays this as t/o orientated.

What level are you?
- Experty
Are you sure?
- Well, may be expertish

[MrAce]

I dont think i am one of the respected players Phil mentioned, but he did ask me this question and my reply was pass so for the sake of consistency i will pass here too

[Phil]

No Timo you count .

As I said I thought this was a WTP 5♦ but Whereagles comment is very relevant. If partner can double on a 3415 11 count the 0373 hand looks very sketchy for 5♦ and our chances against 4♠ are pretty good with the KQx's.

The doubler (me) held xx Axxx AJx xxxx (I might have the round suits switched). Maybe I have too much in diamonds to double. The other consideration is a modern 4♠ can be made on about anything which makes getting involved potentially expensive, although if you trust partner's vulnerable overcalls, less so. 5♦ anyone?

[whereagles]

Your dbl seems fine, Phil. You have no way to know overcaller has a void spade. Sure, you might suspect he has a singleton, but even that is far from certain. We've all had cases of finding out that pard's "marked singleton" is xxx

Now pull pard's 4NT to 5D and all is well.

[quiddity]

Phil, on 2012-January-19, 08:58, said:

The doubler (me) held xx Axxx AJx xxxx (I might have the round suits switched). Maybe I have too much in diamonds to double. The other consideration is a modern 4♠ can be made on about anything which makes getting involved potentially expensive, although if you trust partner's vulnerable overcalls, less so. 5♦ anyone?

I tend to double when I have equity to protect (I think we have game) but I'm not sure what to do. Here I have a known 8+ (very likely 9) card fit. If I thought we could make game, I would bid it. Otherwise I would pass.

Certainly when I first read this problem I thought there was no way partner could have 3 diamonds, much less AJx.

[pooltuna]

JLOGIC, on 2012-January-17, 20:16, said:

5d, what am I missing?

a ♦ fit?!?!

[cherdano]

Deleted non-sense

[mr1303]

It was a 2 level overcall, which is slightly different.

But I agree that this hand is a problem. I tend to play these doubles as card showing, which makes this a tough pass.