[mr1303]

---

Playing SAYC, no other agreements.

[ggwhiz]

I think you owe pard a 4♣ bid followed by 5♣ as a stronger auction than a direct 5♣. A 3nt bid just doesn't fit these cards even at matchpoints.

If pard passes 4♣ at least you know where you stand. Doing a lot of guessing.

[kenrexford]

With no other agreements, there are few options to make an intelligent approach. You could muddy the waters with some sort of fourth-suit 3♠ call, which serves no function except to wildly confuse things, so that seems dumb.

My choice is 4♣. 3♣ was GF, so 4♣ should show slam interest and set trumps. If partner bids the expected 4♦, a 4♠ cue should be right, but I don't know if cues are "Aces first" in SAYC, which would be dumb, but SAYC is sometimes dumb.

[aguahombre]

Although 4C seems routine, I would not be so sure that either 4D or 4H by opener at this point would be first cue.

[whereagles]

canonical 4C

[hrothgar]

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for 3NT, particularly at MP.

[aguahombre]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 13:56, said:

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for 3NT, particularly at MP.

Yes, but that simply shows why, after the 4C "raise", 4 of a red suit shouldn't be a cue or Kickback. It doesn't mean that on the chance partner made up 3C we should not raise to 4 with this hand.

Masterguessing that opener does not have clubs, and therefore suggesting we also don't have clubs --- plus suggesting we might have both hearts and spades stopped --- does not seem like the partnership thing to do.

[ggwhiz]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 13:56, said:

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

Me too but never unless pard has a fallback position like a gazillion running ♦ and a ♣ holding where my raise is useful information.

I think a red suit continuation should be a cue (SAYC, no other agreements) but would not cue the ♠K if my response to 4nt is 5♦. If pard bids game or more in ♦ I'll feel comfortable.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2011-November-12, 14:41, said:

I think a red suit continuation should be a cue (SAYC, no other agreements) but would not cue the ♠K if my response to 4nt is 5♦. If pard bids game or more in ♦ I'll feel comfortable.

I wasn't clear. I meant a red suit by Opener after the 4C raise by responder shouldn't be a cue, for the reason that those bids are needed for natural purposes. Responder is a different story.

[whereagles]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 13:56, said:

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

Systemic insufficiencies.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 13:56, said:

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

A more efficient artificial GF is a 2S-jump over a 1H response.... ( just ask Gnasher ).

[neilkaz]

I would raise to 4♣. What happened while playing? I presume your SAYC with no other agreements pickup passed 4♣, took 12 tricks and wondered why you didn't make a stronger call of 5♣? (Yes of course 3♣ is GF)

That happened to me on a similar hand a few months ago....and as you might imagine it was my last hand with that PD.

It really is difficult to bid anything that isn't very routine with a SAYC and no other agreements pickup.

[hrothgar]

whereagles, on 2011-November-12, 16:45, said:

Systemic insufficiencies.

I seem to recall that the original post directly stated SAYC, no other agreements...

[kenrexford]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 13:56, said:

Huh...

I've seen a 3♣ rebid on a doubleton.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for 3NT, particularly at MP.

I've bid 3♣ with a void, I'm sure. But, so what? Do you really want to play 3NT opposite that hand? I highly doubt that to be the right contract when it happens.

[whereagles]

hrothgar, on 2011-November-12, 19:52, said:

I seem to recall that the original post directly stated SAYC, no other agreements...

It's sayc that has to be changed then lol

[mr1303]

Well, no-one has suggested the bid I made, which was 3D. (Which was passed out by partner, but I guess that's another story).

My thinking was this:

1) As hrothgar suggested, people frequently fake the 3C jump shift. This being the case, 3NT might well be the spot, so I didn't particularly want to raise clubs immediately.

2) If partner's jump shift is based upon good heart support, he would probably bid 3H next. Opposite a 1354 19 count, 3NT is almost certainly the spot to play.

3) If partner has a good hand with 5+5+ in the minors, then 5C or 6C could be the spot. With nothing much in the majors, he would be likely to rebid his clubs next, after which I could show club support then.

4) With any other hand that doesn't fit into the above categories, he would probably either a) bid 3NT himself, or b) bid 3S asking me to bid 3NT, either of which would probably suit me.

The important part I thought was not to past 3NT at this stage.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'm interested in your "other story" .
3C was a GF. How could partner pass out your 3D bid ( as bad as it was ) ?

Justin's remarks about SJS still hold true today ( see my signature ) .