[Free]

han, on 2011-November-10, 05:40, said:

If the opponents can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, then why aren't we passing?

I must admit I haven't seen the singleton raise yet, but people frequently bid 3H with a doubleton heart. People never seem to bid 3H with 4-4 in the majors at these colors.

Opps can be in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit, however, they can also be in a 6-3 or 6-4 fit. We just don't know.

My reasoning for not passing is:
- If they are bidding a 6-3 or better fit, then 3NT is pretty much the only game that has a chance while passing is quite dangerous imo.
- If they are bidding a short fit, then 3NT will have better chances than when they have 9+♥ because partner will probably have half a stopper and communication in the ♥ suit can be stopped.

[MrAce]

han, on 2011-November-11, 16:31, said:

Sorry I don't think that's a relevant argument. You don't know your partner has 15 HCP when you have to decide whether to pass or to bid 3NT.

Of course i dunno that pd had 15 hcp, and he didnt. He had 13 hcp that i can use and thats not way more than i expected tbh. Considering the explenation of DBL ( weak NT or ..) so i expect pd to have at least the values to invite a weak NT. I didnt start with 2 NT, i did not overcall a suit and pd could pass if he has anything less than 11 hcp imo, because i will DBL again with 18+ or bid suit with 17+ etc etc.

And i never said we will make this 3NT, i know very well that we maybe going down if we are not lucky. But then again, if our hand is not that good they can make 3♥ doubled also. But as u said the consequences of 3♥ doubled is very heavy that i would never take this risk at IMP. It can very well be a double game bonus, they can make when we can make 3 NT also. 4♦... as you aso said i dont even know if we have a ♦ fit, maybe pd has long ♣ 3226 4225 or whatever, what is he supposed to do with those hands and 11+ hcp ?

Preempts are made for a reason, i am in a tuff seat after pd's DBL and i dont have too many options. Pd knows that one of the hands i can hold is this, a weak NT with or without a ♥ stopper. If people are bidding 4♦ with this and their pd is sitting on it with 15 hcp when we started DBL over multi, more power to them, i would bid 3 NT and go down.

[han]

Two people have mentioned that the opponents could easily have a 6-4 heart fit. I don't see it. LHO is extremely likely to have 4+ spades on this auction (partner won't often have 5 for his double, especially not with a singleton heart, and RHO won't have 4 spades for his multi preempt) and people don't bid 3H white against red with 4-4 in the majors. So, I think the chance that they have a 6-4 heart fit is very small.

The argument "I would never pass since they might make a doubled partscore" is also bad imo.

[Fluffy]

han, on 2011-November-12, 13:52, said:

The argument "I would never pass since they might make a doubled partscore" is also bad imo.

My argument is, I have more chances to make 3NT than to put this contract 2 off (perhaps not, but close). In fact most times I score 300/500 I have 600 in 3NT so only when 3♥ is 1 down will pass outscore 3NT. That's a small tiny target IMO.

And 3NT is already a very poor choice IMO also, wich means pass is close to ridicoulous

Yo are right about the 4-6 fit, it is very unlikelly.

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2011-November-10, 05:38, said:

Thanks for the responses.

Partner had

QJ10x
Qx
KQxx
AJx

If you are in 3NT, you will probably take the losing spade finesse at some point, so you take -200 and the reputation of an optimist.

If you pass you score +100 and obtain the reputation of a madman.

If you bid 4D you will there for +130 and the reputation of a coward.

It shouldn't surprise anybody that I ended up as a madman.

At first I was thinking partner would need to have great discipline to pass 4D with a 15 count and 4 diamonds, but I suppose it is automatic given that we probably have 2 small hearts.

I have noticed that I tend to bid 3N in this type of situation too much with only one stopper when we'll need 9 to make 3N, possibly because when you don't have 9 you go down multiple tricks which negates a lot of the "bid any 3N in sight vul." -200 and -300 can be costly. That said, if I didn't pass I think this is an excellent candidate for a hand to bid 3N with 1 heart stopper...we have a good 5 card suit and quick tricks, we could easily have 9. And partner can have heart help in this auction obv.

I think pass is extremely reasonable, you are very likely to go plus with your quick tricks, and if you have a game you might get 300 or 500. It kind of combines the upside of 3N (going plus a big number) with the upside of bidding 4D (in fact, I'd guess that passing is more likely to get you a plus than 4D). Of course it introduces a new downside...going minus a big number. I do not think it's going to be that common. Going +100 instead of -200 is very valuable.

Han, I wonder about your first double. I don't play against multi that often but I was talking to Zmudinski about some hand we had this week against them, and he said doubling with 2-2 in the majors and a minimum is a bad strategy. Being 2-2 in the majors makes you guys having a game less likely, as well as having a good partial. And partner under pressure is going to stretch if he has length in a major or two in order to try and make a game. It is also more likely LHO will be able to preempt with something and that partner will be under pressure and get you too high when your hand is this marginal. Something to think about, I thought it was interesting.

[whereagles]

Some use a "two take-out dbls" strategy vs the multi:

2♦ 2M = take out of the major bid. (Can have 5 in the other major.)

or

2♦ dbl = take out of spades (can have 5 hearts)
2♦ 2♥ = take out of hearts

The last variant allows for a natural 2♠ over call.

Within this framework 12-14 hands with no major simply don't overcall. This scheme is widely used in my country and goes in link with Zmud's thoughts.

[han]

JLOGIC, on 2011-November-12, 17:53, said:

Han, I wonder about your first double. I don't play against multi that often but I was talking to Zmudinski about some hand we had this week against them, and he said doubling with 2-2 in the majors and a minimum is a bad strategy. Being 2-2 in the majors makes you guys having a game less likely, as well as having a good partial. And partner under pressure is going to stretch if he has length in a major or two in order to try and make a game. It is also more likely LHO will be able to preempt with something and that partner will be under pressure and get you too high when your hand is this marginal. Something to think about, I thought it was interesting.

I don't consider myself very experienced in defending against multi yet. My thinking went no further then, this looks like a weak notrump, double shows a weak notrump, I double.

If you pass, you might like to bid 2NT for the minors if 2M is passed around to you. I don't think you can double. However, my partner really likes to play that the delayed 2NT still shows a strong balanced hand. I thought that was awful, until today.

I held 10x AKxx J10x AKxx. My RHO opened 2D multi. I figured I would pass and double 2S next round. But 2H was passed around to me. I bid 2NT, my partner bid 3NT, this was doubled and after a heart lead my partner tabled Axxx x xx QJ10xxx. I'm starting to like this agreement.

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-November-13, 12:39, said:

I held 10x AKxx J10x AKxx. My RHO opened 2D multi.

I think an immediate 2NT is right with that. If we have a heart fit, we'll still find it; if partner raises to 3NT, LHO will be now have to lead without knowing what his partner's suit is.

[han]

If RHO had opened 2S (and it must be at least 80% that RHO has spades, probably more) then nobody in their right minds would overcall 2NT. Not out of fear of missing the 4-4 heart fit, but because if we belong in 3NT then it is probably better in partner's hand. This will be no different here. I think that if the auction goes (2D) - 2NT - (p) - 3NT, LHO can almost certainly guess which suit declarer has, and 3NT from our side could easily be very wrong. 2NT has more disadvantages, for example, we cannot stop in 3m when partner has a bad hand.

We have only a 15-count with no spade stopper, but our honors are good enough to double 3S for takeout should that come back to us. If 2S comes back to us (which seems very likely) then I'd be happy to have passed so that I can double now.

I am not convinced that it is right to bid 2NT immediately.

[MrAce]

This topic is actually a very good example of how hard it is to defend vs multi, compared to straight forward 2♥/2♠ preempts. I read in other topics that people mention there is not much difference in regards to bid over multi vs bid over weak 2 but having played and defended vs multi my entire life before i moved to USA i can tell easily that multi can be pain in the butt more often than regular weak 2. Even when multi has only weak options.

[whereagles]

Even? I'd say especially

A weak/strong multi is easier to defend against because the bid is forcing. If it's not, opener's LHO cannot afford to pass and act later.

[han]

MrAce, on 2011-November-14, 12:08, said:

This topic is actually a very good example of how hard it is to defend vs multi, compared to straight forward 2♥/2♠ preempts. I read in other topics that people mention there is not much difference in regards to bid over multi vs bid over weak 2 but having played and defended vs multi my entire life before i moved to USA i can tell easily that multi can be pain in the butt more often than regular weak 2. Even when multi has only weak options.

You are right, there are many difficulties playing against multi that don't come up against weak 2s. I'm not saying that you are worse off, not knowing the suit can cut both ways. Yesterday I had this problem:

J10x
-
K10xxxx
xxxx

RHO opened 2D, multi, I passed, LHO bid 2H (pass or correct) and partner bid 2NT. There's a pretty good chance that RHO has hearts. Had the auction gone 2H - p - p - 2NT, we'd play transfers, with a transfer to hearts being stayman. Now we don't "know" their suit, so we play transfers to both majors, and 3C is stayman. So I couldn't stop in 3D, which would have been an option after a weak 2.

[phil_20686]

I play a similar defense to han but i would only show a wk nt if I have 3-3 or better in the majors, so that partner can bid with a five card suit with some confidence.

If you are 3-2 or 4-2 wait and make a t/o double. If it goes 2d-4H you are not that worried as responder has spades.

If you are 2-2 imagine what you would do over a 2H or 2S opener? Are people really doubling here? I would bid 3D.

[han]

phil_20686, on 2011-November-15, 08:28, said:

I play a similar defense to han but i would only show a wk nt if I have 3-3 or better in the majors, so that partner can bid with a five card suit with some confidence.

Why shouldn't partner bid a 5-card suit with confidence? Wouldn't he bid 2S with confidence after 1NT - (2H) as well? Do you only open 1NT when you have at least 3-3 in the majors?

Quote

If you are 3-2 or 4-2 wait and make a t/o double. If it goes 2d-4H you are not that worried as responder has spades.

If you are 2-2 imagine what you would do over a 2H or 2S opener? Are people really doubling here? I would bid 3D.

I would never double a 2M opener with 2-2 in the majors and a weak notrump. The double of 2D shows a weak notrump, the double of 2M is takeout. That's completely different. Perhaps you are happy to overcall 3D with a 2-2-5-4 12-count, I'd much rather show a weak notrump. The comparison is so off that I find it hard to believe you are serious.

[Zelandakh]

What is your full defence han? Playing Dixon your second hand looks alot like a 2H overcall (limited take-out of spades). Such a Dixon-like structure might allow you to reclaim that delayed 2NT bid for the minors again.