[Zelandakh]

I tens to think that if you are going to the trouble of using a multi-bid then it is best to use 2S for it since it gives you the maximum space to unwind everything. If 1NT - 2D; 2H - 2S is a range ask with either a) a normal 2/4/5NT bid; b) clubs as a second suit; or c) a strong slam try in hearts, you get the same advantages but also get 3C as a diamond transfer and a spare 3D bid as an added bonus.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-September-20, 08:47, said:

I tend to think that if you are going to the trouble of using a multi-bid then it is best to use 2S for it since it gives you the maximum space to unwind everything. If 1NT - 2D; 2H - 2S is a range ask with either a) a normal 2/4/5NT bid; b) clubs as a second suit; or c) a strong slam try in hearts, you get the same advantages but also get 3C as a diamond transfer and a spare 3D bid as an added bonus.

Thx again, Zel.... I only wish I had thought of that !

BTW, what do you use the 3D! "bonus bid" as ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kenrexford, on 2011-September-19, 17:35, said:

Responder can then use simple kickback 4♦... and can count 12 tricks.    A 5♦ grand move (Kings) will sooner or later get this to the grand.

I think I see what Ken was driving at with Responder's 5D "ask" . ( Sometimes it takes me awhile ).

Opener realizes it must be out of the ordinary since he has shown 15 hcp in key cards [ EDIT: actually ONLY 14 hcp in key cards ( A A A and trump Q --- I mistakenly recalled A A AK ) ] .
Another outside K would put him out of the range for a NT opener.

EDIT: Therefore, Opener does have room for an outside K, and the reply to the 5D! K-ask = 6♣ ( no outside K's ).

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-September-20, 13:27

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-20, 06:53, said:

I agree with you on the use of a "multi-3C!" ... since I used it myself in post # 5.

But my followups are different.
Also, I have Opener use key-card...for a number of reasons.. mainly because he is control-rich and has no 2 quick losers when implementing key-card-ask. Afterall, Responder has said he is "slammish".
Also, Opener is the only one who knows about the 6th Club which brings the total to 13 tricks in the absence of the pointy Kings.

In your sequence, employing key-card-ask by Responder violates "asking" w/o knowledge of the two-quick losers in the side suits. And then when he asks for specific Kings, and finds none in Opener's hand, is Opener really going to jump to the grand on only the basis of a 6 card Club suit ? Too speculative IMO .

Opener could opt keycard with a 4♦ call himself, if he so chose. However, with the one control spot that is missing being in hearts, the suit that partner showed, this is a fairly safe gamble to take, even if technically "unsound in theory."

On the ther hand, I think your theory take is off. True -- Opener is the only one who knows of the sixth club. However, Responder is the only one who knows of the solid hearts. I think one card in clubs is much less important than solid hearts.

Also, I did not state that Opener would jump to the slam. I said that a 5♦ move will sooner or later get to the grand. That's wildly different. A possible full auction (depending on methods) might be:

1NT-2♦
2♥-3♣
4♣-4♦
answer-5♦
6♣(no kings)...

At this point, Responder is willing to commit to 6NT. On route, perhaps...

6♣-6♠(grand last train)
7♣?

So, a more conservative auction still reaches the grand, IMO.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-20, 09:10, said:

Opener realizes it(5D) must be out of the ordinary since he has shown 15 hcp in key cards.
Another outside K would put him out of the range for a NT opener.

kenrexford, on 2011-September-20, 10:58, said:

1NT-2♦
2♥-3♣
4♣-4♦
answer-5♦
6♣(no kings)...

At this point, Responder is willing to commit to 6NT. On route, perhaps...

6♣-6♠(grand last train)
7♣?

Because of what twofor posted, I would think 5D was already a grand last train. Opener does not need to be asked twice. Responder asked for kings, knowing opener doesn't have any and knowing his partner knows this is the case.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-20, 09:01, said:

Thx again, Zel.... I only wish I had thought of that !

BTW, what do you use the 3D! "bonus bid" as ?

I use it as both majors, at least 5-5 with slam interest. This is in addition to 1NT - 4C which also shows both majors 5-5 and the auction 1NT - 2C (puppet) - 2D - 3C (GF 4+ hearts, 4+ spades), so no shortage of ways to bid this hand type!

[kenrexford]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-20, 11:11, said:

Because of what twofor posted, I would think 5D was already a grand last train. Opener does not need to be asked twice. Responder asked for kings, knowing opener doesn't have any and knowing his partner knows this is the case.

First, I am not entirely sure that the analysis is correct for all people. AKx-xx-Axx-AQxxx seems too strong for me to open 1NT. However, some do.

Second, I was proposing an auction. If you want to be complete in the analysis, then 5♦ probably should be a Queen-ask contextually, not a King ask and not Grand Last Train. Using that assumption:

1NT-2♦
2♥-3♣
4♣(power raise, two top clubs, deferring)-4♦(RKCB)
answer-5♦(Queen ask)
5♠(queen)-5NT(grand last train)

Something like this is a start.

Third, though, all sorts of possible sequences are possible. The idea of "no two last trains" seems wrong. The first "last train" may be looking for heart help but the second "last train" looking for "other help." It depends on agreements.

[xxhong]

I usually open 1C with this hand.
1C 1H
2S(good hand, 6+C) 3C(fit, gf)
3N 4D(RKC)
blabla.

If you open 1NT, it may go like this:
1N 2D
2H 2N(gf, waiting, using 2S for invitational hands)
3C(5+C) 4C
4D(RKC) 4N
5D 6H(HKQJ)
7C/7NT

Fluffy, on 2011-September-17, 12:46, said:

---

Bidding this grand is a piece of cake if you start with 1♣, but what about 1NT opening?