[Hanoi5]

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[jmcw]

West has chosen a series of bids that has confused his partner, (and me too). Presumably his first X showed ♥, the second X was takeout to the red suits.
East's 2NT seems reasonable.

West's 3♣ really muddies the waters, seemingly East thinks its natural and its all down hill from there. Throughout the entire sequence West never mentions his best suit and has overvalued his hand despite his partner's "discouraging" 2NT bid.

West might have chosen to pass 1♥ and make a takeout X, once the transfer was completed, but given the his initial action, 3♦ over 2NT would have given a clearer picture of his hand.

I blame West 80%, and give East 20% for the ♣ bids.

[the hog]

This bidding should not be in the Advanced forum. West appears to be a beginner.

[bonxie]

It seems completely clear to me that W took 2NT as scrambling / lebensohl rather than natural. If that is the partnership agreement then 100% East.
West seems to have bid 3♣ to show his minimum for the bidding so far, after which 4♣ and in particular the pull of 4♥ are just off the planet.

Even without the agreement that 2NT is artificial it seems a crazy bid on that empty spade suit. West is, however,not without blame for overbidding his admittedly shapely but aceless hand.

Lesson, as always, make firm agreements and don't try anything fancy with a pickup partner.

[Free]

West definitely deserve a huge portion of the blame, but what on earth was 2NT?

[cherdano]

I vote 20% West, 10% East, and 70% for posting this in A/E without having an agreement (or telling us about the agreement) for the first double.

[Flameous]

Agree with Cherdano, though some extra blame for west for the 3♣ bid as I don't see any circumstances where it could be right. (2NT as Leb is stupid here, but scrambling might make sense)

[jmcw]

Free, on 2011-August-23, 06:54, said:

West definitely deserve a huge portion of the blame, but what on earth was 2NT?

He has to bid something!. Whether 2NT is "natural", scrambling, or something else, I hardly think West should bid 3♣.

[billw55]

jmcw, on 2011-August-23, 08:50, said:

He has to bid something!. Whether 2NT is "natural", scrambling, or something else, I hardly think West should bid 3♣.

I wonder how insane it would be to leave in 2♠x ..

[WellSpyder]

Flameous, on 2011-August-23, 08:36, said:

(2NT as Leb is stupid here...)

Would you care to explain why? I would have thought the advantages and disadvantages weren't that different from other Lebensohl situations. (Although we haven't discussed this particular auction, it certainly appears to fit the generic agreements one of partners likes on when 2N is Leb.)

[aguahombre]

Even though it would be nice to know something about what West thought their agreements were, it might still be fun to try to solve the puzzle in A/E without such knowledge.

The common recommended defense to transfer responses seems to be the first double showing a 1H overcall (like 1H over 1S, only legal-sufficient). West's first double seems to be that.

Then East does not have sufficient values to act over 2S, so he didn't.

First blame, IMO is West's second double. With 5-5, it seems 3D would be better.

So, the 2NT confusion would not have happened; and we don't know if East knew about the hearts or what he would have done. But if he didn't bid 3H, then the blame would be clear.

When West did make the second double, a Lebenish 2NT --as Cherdano said--would not seem reasonable, but who knows? East does have a bullet and 3-card heart support, so it looks like he was simply not in tune with West. Scrambling seems even sillier unless East did not know about the hearts.

Blame: maybe both for not ensuring they knew how to compete over T-Walsh; West for the second double; and both of them for what happened afterward.

[whereagles]

2nd dbl is pointless. What's wrong with 3♦?

[Free]

jmcw, on 2011-August-23, 08:50, said:

He has to bid something!. Whether 2NT is "natural", scrambling, or something else, I hardly think West should bid 3♣.

He can always pass ofcourse, 5 trumps to the K and a side suit Ace while partner doubles twice...

[nige1]

Lacking agreements, Hanoi5 and his partner were struggling but, IMO, East is mainly to blame.
- West's double of the 1♥ transfer should show 4+ ♥, especially if there is no other agreement.
- In a murky auction, East could risk a pass of West's second double but might be reluctant to do so with three ♥.
- If West fears that 2N could be Lebensohl (scramble is more likely) then 3♣ is an understandable safety play.
- East should bid 3♥ over West's 3♣. False preference to 4♣ is dangerous in a confused auction.
- East should pass 4♥, realising that the contract is likely to be playable and opponents haven't yet doubled.
- East should correct to 5♥ when 5♣ is doubled but if he's a BBO expert, then his confusion and panic are understandable.

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[gwnn]

At the risk of making a helpful post, I'd like to share this:

1♣-p-1♥*-?? (* transfer)
X=♦+♥, i.e. a standard takeout double
1♠=♣+♥, i.e. a takeout double of diamonds and spades. this is useful because the people who play transfer walsh often open 1♣ even with diamond length (sometimes even with 5)

The same for 1♣-p-1♦, x shows diamonds and spades, 1♥ shows clubs and spades.

I read this on the forums a while ago. Maybe from gnasher, not sure.

[phil_20686]

I dont understand all the comments on this thread.

West should have bid micheals if he had that available, but it is possble that he plays 2C as natural. Failing that he is more than good enough for an unusual 2N at his first bid.

That said, I do not mind an initial t/o dble terribly. Presumeably the first dble was t/o not showing hearts. I mean people play different things here. 1!s=balanced/chunky t/o dble, and dble=light/shapely t/o dble is perfectly sensible. I have no idea what would be "standard" if we had no agreement, but it seems eminently likely that west thought this showed a shapely t/o dble.

2N should not be lebensohl because partner has already passed over 2S. Given that partner plays lebensohl direcly over 2S, he could already have shown a positive, or a weak hand with a good fit. Seeing as partner has neither of these things it does not make a lot of sense for him to be able to show these things. Scrambling is more useful because often partner is off-shape on this auction (5-4 in the reds for example), and with a 4-3-3-3, or 3-3-3-4 you get good mileage from always finding your 8 card fit.

West should have bid 3D over 2N, for sure. Nevertheless easts 4C bid is leaving the station, wests 4H bid is worse - it looks like a club slam try. So plenty of blame to go around. Mostly west for not showing his 5-5 hand at the first turn. Then Again for thinking this was lebensohl. East for bidding 2N when he could have bid 3h. East again for bidding 4C.

I am going to say its 200% west fault, with another 100% easts fault.

[dake50]

Never limit your hand so partner can decide.
Never quit until you are Wa-a-ay overbid.

Rules I too play by.

[affe82]

To me Wests bidding is okay.
I play first X as ♥-overcall or strong. 2nd X would confirm strong TO of ♠ (I admit this might be exaggerating a bit, but with a stack of ♠ pd can find a penelty pass-opps being in a likely 4-4fit or 4-5fit, 2♠ showing a weak balanced hand with 4c support I guess - it is not out of this world, West has great defense). 1♠ would have been a weakish to normal TO of ♠. Treating the hand as a 4c ♥-suit is reasonable. Bidding 3 ♦ here as west would never occur to me.

Obvious to me 2Nt is lebensohl so for me 3♣ is 100%. Sure we play some form of lebensohl direct over 2♠ as well. But pd started by showing an overcall in ♥ and now has progressed to showing a strong TO of ♠. To me a lot of hands being not good enough first round is invitational now. East should accept playing in the 4-3 (pressumed ♥-fit) or penelty-pass 2♠, which I would. 5c trump and an ace vs a strong hand with unlikely fit seems like money here - we even get to lead ♠.
To me 4♣ is what really kills us in this auction.

[whereagles]

dake50, on 2011-August-24, 06:24, said:

Never limit your hand so partner can decide.
Never quit until you are Wa-a-ay overbid.

Rules I too play by.

"Never" and "always" are dangerous words in bridge. The game is very prone to exceptions... In fact, the only rule I know that always works is 'think'