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What does partner have?

#21 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 02:43

 gnasher, on 2011-May-27, 02:14, said:

5♣ looks reasonable, but I still like 3♠ (which I think is clearly forcing).

And what is 3♠ supposed to accomplish? Is it an invitation to 5♣ or an advanced cuebid to suggest 6♣?
It is the type of "clearly forcing" wonderland bid I dislike, because it gives me headaches at the table.

Rainer Herrmann
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#22 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 03:20

 rhm, on 2011-May-27, 02:43, said:

And what is 3♠ supposed to accomplish? Is it an invitation to 5♣ or an advanced cuebid to suggest 6♣?
It is the type of "clearly forcing" wonderland bid I dislike, because it gives me headaches at the table.

Rainer Herrmann


As I said in my first post, the idea is to give partner one last chance to bid 3NT. It's all very well picturing some perfect 4135 shape, but he may also have been dealt KQJx Q Axxx AQxx, where 3NT is against the wall but 5♣ is probably off.

Edit: Actually, "probably off" is an overstatement - we may be able to draw one trump, cash four spades, and then crossruff. Stiil, I'd rather be in 3NT.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#23 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 04:03

 gnasher, on 2011-May-27, 03:20, said:

As I said in my first post, the idea is to give partner one last chance to bid 3NT. It's all very well picturing some perfect 4135 shape, but he may also have been dealt KQJx Q Axxx AQxx, where 3NT is against the wall but 5♣ is probably off.


I also think pd can still have 5♠. How was he supposed to bid with KQJxx x AJx AQJx. As i said if 4♥ is COG i wld not bid 3♠.

 Phil, on 2011-May-26, 16:41, said:

You don't think pass is forcing?


No i dont think so.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#24 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 07:04

 MrAce, on 2011-May-27, 04:03, said:

I also think pd can still have 5♠. How was he supposed to bid with KQJxx x AJx AQJx.

By overcalling 1♠ and then doubling.
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#25 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 09:41

 gnasher, on 2011-May-26, 05:49, said:

... maybe 3♠ shows this sort of hand, giving partner one last chance to bid 3NT?
Cunning. I'm now persuaded that this is the best bid.

 Phil, on 2011-May-26, 16:41, said:

You don't think pass is forcing? Partner can have a lot of different patterns - including those with a doubleton (or for that matter, a void) heart! Why are we bidding in front of partner? We could be crushing 3♥, or we could make slam.
IMO, this pass is forcing only if we have that specific agreement. Forcing or not, pass still has some merit.
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#26 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 14:52

 gordontd, on 2011-May-27, 07:04, said:

By overcalling 1♠ and then doubling.


Of course if it ever comes back to you again :)
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#27 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 15:51

 gnasher, on 2011-May-27, 03:20, said:

As I said in my first post, the idea is to give partner one last chance to bid 3NT.

Interesting idea, but does not pass also give partner a last chance to bid 3NT?
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#28 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-May-27, 16:20

 billw55, on 2011-May-27, 15:51, said:

Interesting idea, but does not pass also give partner a last chance to bid 3NT?

Yes, but it also gives him a chance to pass.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#29 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 00:36

Thx all. Well, pard would certainly have disappointed most of you, as he had



In the end...

Me: - "what the heck was that 2nd dbl?"
Pd: - "well, they're not making 3♦!!!!"

I was expecting more like 4225 or 4135 with like 16+ hcp worth of cards. Glad to see I passed the sanity check, ahah!
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#30 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 02:52

We were all (or nearly all) answering the question of how to bid when "dbl is for take out until a fit is reached". That doesn't mean we agree that your partnership plays this double as takeout - only you and your partner can decide that.

It's possible, and indeed quite sensible, to play this double of 3♦ as for penalties: the doubler has already implied some diamond length, both players have promised defensive strength, and responder is unlikely to have more than four clubs. If you play this way, the double should also imply a willingness to defend 3♥x, so partner's actual hand is quite unsuitable.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#31 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 02:59

I would have thought X was penalty fwiw if you had not basically said that it wasn't in your OP, but of course as gnasher said it's inviting us to double 3H. I would have just passed with this hand since I don't want to X 3H with Jxxx of hearts.
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#32 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-May-29, 14:45

I actually have no problem playing this as penalty-oriented. AS LONG AS PARD DOESNT DBL ON THAT :rolleyes:
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