[Winstonm]

Quote

good thing he didn't shut down gitmo, eh?

Maybe I missed something, but what does the dentention center in Guantanemo have to do with this operation that led to bin Laden's death?

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on 2011-May-02, 16:01, said:

Maybe I missed something, but what does the dentention center in Guantanemo have to do with this operation that led to bin Laden's death?

yes, you missed something

[cherdano]

nigel_k, on 2011-May-02, 14:06, said:

Something unquestionably good has happened, quite independently of national politics. So I come into the water cooler and the first three posts are basically:

1. Glad we didn't screw this one up
2. A cheap shot at Fox and Limbaugh
3. Some presidents mess things up but "our current one" got it done

I won't be celebrating either but surely we can just be pleased and give credit to those who worked hard to make this happen. It's not even an election year this year people.

Okay, credit to those who worked hard to make this happen. (Though I hope they are too busy to read BBF.)
Meanwhile, on the bigger scheme: http://www.economist...lling_bin_laden

[Fluffy]

is it just me, or is it suspicious that there is no images of bin laden death yet and his body is suposed to have been already buried?

[nige1]

jillybean, on 2011-May-02, 09:45, said:

I didn't feel any elation on hearing this news, I am more worried about possible repercussions.

Agree with Jillybean. Osama RIP

[kenberg]

In terms of repercussions, I don't know what they will be and neither does anyone else. Some are perhaps better placed to make a guess. But I doubt that someone planning to blow himself up for Allah will change his mind, and I doubt that someone who previously had no such plans will suddenly develop them. But since I have never planned to blow myself up for anyone I can't say that I have a strong insight into their thinking.

But there could be other repercussions. I have been too busy too watch much, but certainly there is concern about the future of US-Pakistan relations. If I have this right, OBL was living in a specially constructed compound in the midst of a number of military facilities. I can allow that they did not know OBL was there, but presumably someone is asking questions along the lines of "Just what the hell did you think that it was?". And then we moved in to attack. Didn't some of the Pakistan military notice attack helicopters coming in for a raid? Osama is right there, we are attacking, and the Pakistanis are watching the show saying "Gee, I wonder what's up"? Seems a little embarrassing.

Here is another thought. Suppose you are in the Pakistan military and you have been chummy with OBL. Stupid Americans haven't a clue. Oops. How long have they been watching that compound?

I really have no idea of what happens next but a little imagination suggest quite a few possibilities.

[PassedOut]

Fluffy, on 2011-May-02, 18:03, said:

is it just me, or is it suspicious that there is no images of bin laden death yet and his body is supposed to have been already buried?

Obama rejected the proposal to display bin Laden's head on a pike in front of the Pentagon. Instead he will produce a long form death certificate sometime in the future.

[hrothgar]

Winstonm, on 2011-May-02, 16:01, said:

Maybe I missed something, but what does the dentention center in Guantanemo have to do with this operation that led to bin Laden's death?

bin Laden was tracked down by following a courier.
According to the New York Times a detainee at Gitmo provided this name to the US four years ago.

The standard set of idiots on the right are already boviating that this

1. Demonstrates that Gitmo was necessary
2. Validates torture
3. Shows that Obama was wrong in wanting to close down Gitmo two years ago

Note: The Washington Post claims that the couriers nickname was originally learned between seven and nice years ago and Gitmo is never mentioned.

http://www.washingto...8jZF_story.html

Like most of Jimmy's "contributions" he is mindlessly parroting the Faux New talking point d'jour.

[kenberg]

It may be a little more complicated. The cited articl by Ignatius reports that

Quote

The trail that led to bin Laden’s hideout in the town of Abbottabad, about 75 miles north of Islamabad, began between 2002 and 2004 with the CIA’s interrogation of al-Qaeda “high-value targets” at secret CIA sites overseas. Several detainees mentioned the “nom de guerre,” or nickname, of one of bin Laden’s couriers.

Although this paragraph does not mention enhanced techniques, secret overseas sites might well suggest such. Further, in the next paragraph,

Quote

Some of the detainees who confirmed the courier’s nickname were subjected to “enhanced interrogation techniques,” the CIA’s formal name for what is now widely viewed as torture.

The print version of the article in my home edition of the Post includes references to waterboarding. I suppose that unless a person is there it might be difficult to know exactly what took place, and the waterboarding statement does not appear in the online version. I wouldn't call it a wild guess, however.

[hrothgar]

kenberg, on 2011-May-03, 05:38, said:

It may be a little more complicated. The cited article by Ignatius reports that

Few comments on the "Gitmo" angle

Civil libertarians such as Greenwald who critize Gitmo do so on a number of grounds

1. A large proportion of the detainees have done anything that warrants detention, let alone torture
2. Gitmo has produced enormous amounts of blowback across the world
3. The same information could have been collected using other means
4. Widespread / systematic violation of civil rights by the US makes impossible to ever subject detainees to a fair trial

Reading between the lines of the Washington Post article

1. We tortured a bunch of people
2. This produced actionable information

We won't ever know definitively whether bin Laden could have been captured had torture not been applied.

Let's assume that he couldn't...

From my perspective, its far from clear whether ends (killing/capturing bin Laden) justify the means...

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on 2011-May-02, 15:45, said:

PassedOut, on 2011-May-02, 07:31, said:

From what I read, the operation was very well planned and executed. The US president can't do it by himself, but he can certainly mess it up by himself. I'm pleased that our current president got it done.

good thing he didn't shut down gitmo, eh?

Okay, I'll bite. Why is that a good thing?

[jjbrr]

blackshoe, on 2011-May-02, 13:49, said:

Sure. Osama's dead, so there will be no more terrorist attacks anywhere. In particular, there will be none against the country that killed him. No more terrorists to find, so why not bring 'em all home?

thanks. that thought never would have occurred to me.

Fluffy, on 2011-May-02, 18:03, said:

is it just me, or is it suspicious that there is no images of bin laden death yet and his body is suposed to have been already buried?

it's just you. osama was someone who liked his followers to know that he was very much alive. 100% if he's still alive now, he'll release a video of himself holding up the "Rot in Hell" newspaper headline. That would be bad for us.

Obama's not dumb enough to risk his re-election on something like this. You can put away your tinfoil hat.

Meanwhile, allegedly the team that raided Osama's mansion and pulled the trigger is a group of america's finest. I don't think they're in the business of posing with Osama's body to post on facebook. Images and video aren't going to be leaked any time soon and certainly not a day or two after it happened, so no, it's not suspicious.

[JLOGIC]

Conceivably they could have captured Osama and faked his death *cue jack bauer*.

I mean, whatever, Obama has promised DNA evidence within a few days, and supposedly he went with this risky operation in order to have conclusive evidence that Osama was dead (rather than just bomb the ***** out of the place). If it doesn't come ever I would be suspicious, but for now I don't think it means anything.

[blackshoe]

You may see a picture of one of the men involved in this. You may meet one somewhere. You will never know he was one of those involved. Well, you might — if you join SEAL Team Six.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2011-May-03, 08:53, said:

Conceivably they could have captured Osama and faked his death *cue jack bauer*.

I mean, whatever, Obama has promised DNA evidence within a few days, and supposedly he went with this risky operation in order to have conclusive evidence that Osama was dead (rather than just bomb the ***** out of the place). If it doesn't come ever I would be suspicious, but for now I don't think it means anything.

NPR reported this AM that State is considering whether or not to release video evidence of his killing.

The pros are that it puts to rest the conspiracy theories. Well, probably not; many would claim the video is doctored.

The con is that you give a few extremist groups extra reason to hate us.

[ggwhiz]

Phil, on 2011-May-03, 09:08, said:

The con is that you give a few extremist groups extra reason to hate us.

This word doesn't belong when talking about these people.

I'm satisfied to take the governments word for it as a snipe hunt for the conspiracy nuts and to avoid collateral damage to a few dozen aid workers in the wrong place.

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on 2011-May-02, 16:07, said:

yes, you missed something

Sullivan has a great post today address the Gitmo meme

http://andrewsulliva...lican-spin.html

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on 2011-May-02, 16:07, said:

yes, you missed something

And another one...

http://tpmdc.talking...-in-any-way.php

Looks like Jimmy was full of *****, like usual

(Really might want to do a better job vetting your "sources")

[kenberg]

I am willing to discuss many things. Whether the killing of OBL was faked is not one of them. You can go on without me on that one.

Now back to the torture. I took an earlier post of Richard's as discounting the possibility of waterboading and such as having played a role:

Quote

Note: The Washington Post claims that the couriers nickname was originally learned between seven and nice years ago and Gitmo is never mentioned.

http://www.washingto...8jZF_story.html

Like most of Jimmy's "contributions" he is mindlessly parroting the Faux New talking point d'jour.

One could say this post never really says waterboading played no role but in the context of the discussion I think my understanding of the post is not a stretch.

I an much more in agreement with the follow-up post (just a few up so I won't reproduce it all) which addresses competing arguments.

In my view, the moral crisis of waterboarding comes front and center here. I have never found the argument that the evidence is unreliable all that convincing. As stand alone intelligence, sure, you wouldn't want to act on it. But it can point in directions to look, especially if the results come from more than one source, as it sounds like it did in this case. If the information were never of use, there would be no waterboarding and hence no debate. I really doubt they do it for amusement. Not many, anyway.

Where we draw the line is a tough call. I think every one of us has a line somewhere. Torturing his children to death in front of him to get him to talk is over everyone's line, I brashly say.

For now, it seems that waterboarding played a role in this hunt. Maybe a critical role, maybe not. The end result is something to cheer, some of the methods were not so pleasant. We have to live with the implications of this. Myself, this gives me the shudders.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-May-03, 13:32, said:

For now, it seems that waterboarding played a role in this hunt. Maybe a critical role, maybe not. The end result is something to cheer, some of the methods were not so pleasant. We have to live with the implications of this. Myself, this gives me the shudders.

Whether torture is effective or not, those who advocate torture are moral cripples. Without exception.