[the_dude]

IMPs

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4H makes exactly .. is it possible on this auction to get to 4 (and only 4) Hearts?

[han]

On this auction you can only get to 6 hearts.

However, if south had bid only 3H, north would have had an easy 4H bid.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2011-February-17, 09:57, said:

On this auction you can only get to 6 hearts.

However, if south had bid only 3H, north would have had an easy 4H bid.

Agree with what you say, and the careful way you worded the second sentence makes it true.
But would YOU really have bid 3H?

Sadly, I would have been defending 3D because the Michaels call is gross, and the 3H/3D bid didn't occur to me. I have no imagination, except to imagine a disaster if I Miked.

Edit: mark this one down as a gain for weak two's in diamonds. Even if 2C was used as either strong or diamonds, South could show the two-suiter (thinking he was doing so vs a strong hand) and get to only 4H.

[pooltuna]

With the normal meta-agreement in place "no preempting over a preempt" essentially south is screwed.

[mr1303]

Agree with the tuna fish. You need more to bid anything over 3D here.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

the_dude, on 2011-February-17, 09:23, said:

IMPs

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4H makes exactly .. is it possible on this auction to get to 4 (and only 4) Hearts?

Since it is just a weak-2D open, with the 2-level bids for the Majors available, wouldn't the North hand be able to DBL ( following the requirement of a "sound opening bid " himself ) .

If so, then they might be able to stop in 4H.

[the hog]

4D is a really bad bid.

[andy_h]

I would bid 4D with South's hand. I think South has to bid 4D or else they're going to lose a game swing. From how the auction has developed it seems very likely that partner has a weak NT with length in diamonds that was unable to make a T/O dbl and I believe that RHO doesn't have that good of a handthey would have enquired with 2NT or whatever.

And now North has an interesting hand. I give (quite a bit of) leeway when it comes to competing against preempts (the most one would be (4H)-4S). From North's point of view it takes quite a bit to take 12 tricks. It either needs partner to have 65 in the majors or quite a good hand with 55 since we are unable to make useful discards if partner has 5-5. Even with a decent hand of AQxxx KQxxx x Kx you still need both major suits to break. But nonetheless with so many good controls with the North hand I would still make a move with either 5C/5D to invite with the corresponding major so no, I would not be able to stop in 4H.

[the hog]

andy_h, on 2011-February-17, 19:19, said:

I would bid 4D with South's hand. I think South has to bid 4D or else they're going to lose a game swing. From how the auction has developed it seems very likely that partner has a weak NT with length in diamonds that was unable to make a T/O dbl and I believe that RHO doesn't have that good of a handthey would have enquired with 2NT or whatever.

And now North has an interesting hand. I give (quite a bit of) leeway when it comes to competing against preempts (the most one would be (4H)-4S). From North's point of view it takes quite a bit to take 12 tricks. It either needs partner to have 65 in the majors or quite a good hand with 55 since we are unable to make useful discards if partner has 5-5. Even with a decent hand of AQxxx KQxxx x Kx you still need both major suits to break. But nonetheless with so many good controls with the North hand I would still make a move with either 5C/5D to invite with the corresponding major so no, I would not be able to stop in 4H.

Sorry Andy, but this is really funny. Partner has bid 4D and you have a top control in each of partner's 5 cards, plus the Ace of clubs and you don't think this is worth 6? You have got to be kidding. AQxxx KQxxx x Kx is about the weakest partner should be. You admit this yourself and then still bid 4D with the South hand!

[andy_h]

the hog, on 2011-February-18, 00:06, said:

Sorry Andy, but this is really funny. Partner has bid 4D and you have a top control in each of partner's 5 cards, plus the Ace of clubs and you don't think this is worth 6? You have got to be kidding. AQxxx KQxxx x Kx is about the weakest partner should be. You admit this yourself and then still bid 4D with the South hand!

No, I do not think it is worth a slam force. Like I mentioned, partners should be allowed to given leeway when it comes to bidding against preempts. That is because I believe in the style of games before slam, as well as strain before slam. The example I gave, I used the words "Even with a decent hand of AQxxx KQxxx x Kx" and if I call this a decent hand, how is this the weakest hand that partner should have? (And where did I admit this was the weakest?) I can lower the hcp down such as AJxxx Qxxxxx - xx or Q10xxx KQJxx x Kx or Axxxxx KJxxx x x or AQJxx Kxxxx - Qxx etc. and these hands are obvious 4D hands for me. If these hands are also 4D bids for you, then I suggest you rethink about hanging partner by forcing to slam without even using the 5 level for invite. If these hands aren't 4D for you, then you can miss those games that I was talking about.

Sure I understand that the current hand given is not spectacular in the hcp department but we have the shortage in diamonds (void > singleton) and East only stuck his nose in with 3D so if the hcp are spread evenly between both sides then surely a 4M game is looking very good for us. I understand that with the right/perfect hand for partner (who most likely has a weak NT to not have acted over 2D) partner may invite slam by putting us at the 5 level and here I just happen to hit one of the worst cases from partner. Other times he might have boring weak NT hands such as Jx KQx KJ9x QJx or Axx Kxx Kxxx KJx etc. and we will happily play in 4M rather than defending a measley 3D. If partner has the right hand and invites by going to the 5-level then I believe he has the right cards for us and 5M has a good chance of making, and if it goes 1 off, I'm happy enough to trade my +50 from defending 3D for -50 to attempt to find my game bonus.

[the hog]

"(And where did I admit this was the weakest?)"

I said this was the weakest, (for me certainly). Don't pre empt a pre empt.

Sort of reminds me of a hand in the NOT many years ago, when partner overcalled a 3H opening 3S with KQTxxxx xx xxx x

Next hand bid 5H and I bid 6S with a good hand, doubled and off 2.

[xxhong]

4D is too aggressive but 6D is nonsense. Partner's 4D never says that he can make 4M if you can provide only one trick. Now you can provide three tricks, so that really doesn't mean that your side can make 6 M. In this sense, north's 6D is probably more aggressive than south's 4D. Hands like SATxxx HKTxxxx D- CQx looks like a very normal 4D bid, where 4M can really be your limit here.

[aguahombre]

xxhong, on 2011-February-18, 11:49, said:

Partner's 4D never says that he can make 4M if you can provide only one trick.
Hands like SATxxx HKTxxxx D- CQx looks like a very normal 4D bid, where 4M can really be your limit here.

Disagree on both points. The example hand is well below "normal" for a 4D bid to me. Maybe it is just a style thing, but 4D is at least AQTXX KQJXX X KX in my conservative world. This North, with his hand (KXX AXX QXXX AXX, knows I actually have a diamond void. Settling for 6M when seven might be cold is the practical "stay fixed" action.

AQJXX KQJXXX - XX would be fine. 2-2 hearts required for the grand, so best to go low in 6.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2011-February-18, 12:36, said:

Disagree on both points. The example hand is well below "normal" for a 4D bid to me. Maybe it is just a style thing, but 4D is at least AQTXX KQJXX X KX in my conservative world. This North, with his hand (KXX AXX QXXX AXX, knows I actually have a diamond void. Settling for 6M when seven might be cold is the practical "stay fixed" action.

AQJXX KQJXXX - XX would be fine. 2-2 hearts required for the grand, so best to go low in 6.

I could not have said it better.
The thing that amuses me about Andy's first post, is that he says he would bid 4D, but then with partner's hand he could not stop below 6M. This appears to suggest that he will never find it possible to get a positive score under these circumstances.

[andy_h]

the hog, on 2011-February-18, 18:32, said:

I could not have said it better.
The thing that amuses me about Andy's first post, is that he says he would bid 4D, but then with partner's hand he could not stop below 6M. This appears to suggest that he will never find it possible to get a positive score under these circumstances.

Ron, where did I ever say that I could not stop below 6M? I wrote "But nonetheless with so many good controls with the North hand I would still make a move with either 5C/5D to invite with the corresponding major so no, I would not be able to stop in 4H." I said I would make a move towards slam but for heaven's sake you really think I was accepting the invite with the actual South's hand!? It's a shame because I will get my fair share of +420 and if I luck out with North having a control rich hand then I will sometimes get +450 or -50 at the 5 level whereas passing will get you +50 or -110 for defending 3D.

[655321]

Agree with andy_h.

Passing the South hand makes little sense when you know that 3♦ will be the final contract, and you will score something like -110 or +50, often when you are cold for 4M. Forcing to slam as North after partner's Michaels seems naive to me.

Also I read andy_h's posts very carefully, and couldn't find the things hog accused him of saying!

[the hog]

andy_h, on 2011-February-18, 18:45, said:

Ron, where did I ever say that I could not stop below 6M? I wrote "But nonetheless with so many good controls with the North hand I would still make a move with either 5C/5D to invite with the corresponding major so no, I would not be able to stop in 4H." I said I would make a move towards slam but for heaven's sake you really think I was accepting the invite with the actual South's hand!? It's a shame because I will get my fair share of +420 and if I luck out with North having a control rich hand then I will sometimes get +450 or -50 at the 5 level whereas passing will get you +50 or -110 for defending 3D.

Ok, Andy, my misinterpretation. I assumed you said you couldn't stop below 6. Sorry.

[aguahombre]

Back to post#2. Han's (maybe joking, maybe not) suggestion that 3H, rather than 4D would result in only 4H by N/S is starting to look better and better.

Maybe that is the only answer for those of us who feel it is wrong to pass 3D but gross to bid 4D. Even If I thought of 3H at the table, MY North would have made a mild try for slam with the given hand (4♦). But would subside at 4♥.

[TylerE]

I wonder if on this kind of auction it would make sense to give up a penalty double, and play X as all good hands, and other bids as pre-balancing.

[gwnn]

TylerE, on 2011-February-20, 15:36, said:

I wonder if on this kind of auction it would make sense to give up a penalty double, and play X as all good hands, and other bids as pre-balancing.

Am I another misreader of this thread?? Who plays 2♦-p-3♦-x as penalty?