[Antraxxx]

Before I begin, I don't know what you guys consider beginner/intermediate, but I'm a real beginner. I've tried reading most of the discussions here and I can't figure them out at all. All sorts of abbreviations and conventions that mean nothing to me. So please, try to keep it simple.

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I think my first two passes are okay. While I have points, I don't have any good suit to show, and I can't call NT with a singleton in their suit. The problem therefore arose after east's double. At the table, I thought that since I have 5-4 in the majors and 10 pts, it's possible east has something similar in terms of strength and shape. So, he sees shortness in their suits, but hasn't enough strength to TO double and hasn't a good enough suit to overcall with. Then, after the opponents keep mucking about, he sees an opportunity to try and get the partscore, as he estimates we have roughly the same amount of points and a good fit in at least one of the majors.
So, I took the double out to 3S, which was most likely the reason he stood up and left after the opening lead. His hand was this:

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So clearly he meant the double to be penalty, and was annoyed that I could think otherwise. Seeing as he was advanced and I am not, I'm guessing he's right, but how could I have known in advance?

Thanks.

[cloa513]

You should have doubled or bid 1 spade after the 1 diamond as your values with shortage in clubs. Probably Double is best. Why do you think Partner had not enough to double 1 club for takeout but when they get three clubs he suddenly has enough to double for takeout. It makes no sense that his double is for takeout, it must be penalty. Take your chances and let him try to take them down.

[hotShot]

(If someone advertises as advanced or expert don't bet your money on that.)

Your first 2 passes are ok.

If you look at your cards you see a single ♣, South did not support North ♣ - bidding 1♦ instead.
Where are the 12 ♣ cards you don't have?

If your partner wanted to make a takeout dbl, why didn't he do that last round?

[Cyberyeti]

hotShot, on 2010-November-05, 02:52, said:

(If someone advertises as advanced or expert don't bet your money on that.)

Your first 2 passes are ok.

If you look at your cards you see a single ♣, South did not support North ♣ - bidding 1♦ instead.
Where are the 12 ♣ cards you don't have?

If your partner wanted to make a takeout dbl, why didn't he do that last round?

Because he has a 3 suiter with clubs and the majors ? and doesn't want you bidding diamonds. This is slightly style dependent, as if your double of a short club only guarantees the majors then this clearly does not apply.

This double would be T/O for me, with a penalty double, he would wait for me to X 3♣.

[hotShot]

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Cyberyeti, on 2010-November-05, 05:01, said:

This double would be T/O for me, with a penalty double, he would wait for me to X 3♣.

North 2nd bid looks like 3♣ to me .....

[Flameous]

I don't care whether X he is T/O or penalty, I think it's absolutely ridiculous bid in either case. If it's for T/O, do you actually consider winning this auction? I think you are just highlighting your high cards and distribution to the declarer, could as well show my cards. And if it's penalty, it makes even less sense. 1D bidder might have the cards to investigate a slam or something here, quite easily even, just give him my cards. Now how good do I feel when opponents are alerted at the safe 3 level of dangers ahead and they safely take their 9-10 tricks in 3NT. (Or 11 tricks in 5D when appropriate)
Okay, maybe the penalty does make more sense, waiting for the time when I also hold those DAK so I can go around safely doubling everything they bid. With this hand penalty double just seems to tell them to take their diamond tricks in 3NT.

[phil_20686]

easts bidding is absurd. Wests bidding seems normal(ish). Its best to bid 1S rather than dble with this hand in the sandwich position (after Y P Z), as your biggest gain comes when you have a 9 card fit and can barrage the opponents by bidding 3 or 4 spades. If the choice was at a higher level you should dble. Dble over 3c should normally be t/o I think among advanced players. This is still al live auction so its kinda dangerous but the gain can be worthwhile especially at MP. When 1d is only 4 or 5 HCP you could conceivably still be making game. Often (sometimes) the auction will die in 3c so you wish that you had protected. More to the point: dble from the protective seat (after 3C p p) should definately be t/o, and one should generally have the same agreement at both sides of the table .

[the hog]

Hi Antraxxx,
Your first pass is ok, though some aggressive players would open. Your second pass is not ok. You have 5-4 in the other 2 suits and you should definitely double.
There are some weird answers to your questions by some posters. This is one of the weirdest"
"I don't care whether X he is T/O or penalty, I think it's absolutely ridiculous bid in either case". (I assume the poster means your bid here, and not your partner's as double is not a bid, but a call).Of course if your partner meant his double as takeout, it is sheer lunacy to pass. I would play this double by your partner as takeout and would bid the same way you did.

[mcphee]

I would consider myself lucky he left. Double of 3C is just ridiculous imho.

[phil_20686]

phil_20686, on 2010-November-05, 06:41, said:

Its best to bid 1S rather than dble with this hand in the sandwich position (after Y P Z), as your biggest gain comes when you have a 9 card fit and can barrage the opponents by bidding 3 or 4 spades. If the choice was at a higher level you should dble.

the hog, on 2010-November-05, 06:46, said:

Hi Antraxxx,
Your second pass is not ok. You have 5-4 in the other 2 suits and you should definitely double.

Lets agree not to start this old chestnut up (again) in the B/I forum

Suffice to say, some good players would dble and others would bid 1S, but everyone would do *something*.

[Cyberyeti]

hotShot, on 2010-November-05, 05:12, said:

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North 2nd bid looks like 3♣ to me .....

Eh ... ?

And I said with a penalty pass of clubs, he'd pass and wait for me to double 3♣ rather than doing it himself.

[Bbradley62]

phil_20686, on 2010-November-05, 06:50, said:

Suffice to say, some good players would dble and others would bid 1S, but everyone would do *something*.

The simple way of looking at this is: you have just about the best possible hand you can have for your first-seat pass, so when the bidding gets back to you still at the one level, you should do something to let partner know.

Bottom line: If partner left in a huff after this ambiguous auction, you are better off without him.

[helene_t]

It is a very complex issue which doubles are take-out and which ones are penalty. As beginners most of us have been taught that doubles are penalty unless specifically defined as take-out. Then as improvers we learn to define more and more doubles specifically as take-out, up to the point where there are barely any penalty doubles left And in the advanced section of this forum, the closest you can come to a universal rule is that all doubles are take-out unless it would make no sense to play it as take-out. But it takes a lot of experience to figure out whether it would make any sense to play a particular double as take-out.

This particular double "should" probably show both majors. I must admit that I am not quite sure whether to expect something like KJTx-Jxxxx-xx-Kx or rather AJxx-AJxx-x-Axxx. Maybe both would be ok. Maybe one (or both) of these hands should have acted immediately. In any case, opposite an advanced partner who must have support for both majors, I would clearly bid 3♠ with your hand as you did. Opposite a random bbo partner (anyone can call himself "advanced") I wouldn't be sure. Lots of players would assume this double to penalty, go 30 years back in time and I think even most experts would.

This all said, you really should have done something over 1♦. Dbl and 1♠ are both ok unless of course you know that your partner has a strong preference, as some of the other posters appear to have. But pass is not an option, especially given that you already passed in the opening position so partner won't expect a powerhouse.

[Antraxxx]

About the second pass:
I was taught to overcall only with a decent suit, even at 1 level, because if the opponents have the points, then my overcall would end up lead directing, and I really don't want P leading into my K8765 spades unless it's no-trump, no?
As for the double, I was worried because my AK are in the opponents' suit. So if my partner doesn't have a good suit of his own, we are going to have a bad combined trump holding. I'm probably too timid, I just try to adhere to what I was taught until I understand enough to know when to diverge. So this is one case where I had to diverge, but how could I have known that? I indeed have a maximal hand for a first seat pass, is that what a double tells partner? I admit I'm sometimes at a loss when a passed hand suddenly enters the bidding, I always wonder what's kept them until now if they really have a good suit and/or points.

[Free]

The first pass is ok. Unless playing a light opening system ofcourse.

I disagree with the 2nd pass: you have values, you have a maximum passed hand, and you have both unbid suits. Imo you should do something other than pass, preferably Dbl to bring both suits in the picture.

I also disagree with the 3♠ bid. Partner isn't balancing or looking for a part score since opps have most of the points (South responded and North jumps!). Also most would Dbl immediately with both Majors after 1♣, so that lowers the chance of being takeout even more. For me it's a clear penalty Dbl. The only reason to Dbl for takeout after 3♣ would be with a 4=4=1=4 or similar, but then 3♣ won't have much play after a ♦ lead to AK and a ♦ ruff.

Don't worry too much about people leaving, most of the time you should be glad that they don't start a useless discussion or start shouting at you. I'm pretty sure you have "beginner" in your BBO profile, so either way people shouldn't expect to have a perfect game.

[helene_t]

It is fine for partner to lead a suit in which you have the king. But even if the suit had been Qxxxx, I would still overcall. The main purpose of overcalling in spades is to win the partscore battle or drive the opps up to an unsafe level. If partner has three spades he will bid 2♠ and opps have to bid to the 3-level. If partner has four spades he will probably bid 3♠ and opps might get a difficult choice.

As for double, it primarily says that you have 4-4 in the unbid suits, although you should also have some values. This is mainly because if you have a very weak hand opps are probably going to bid game anyway and then a double would be helpful to declarer by telling them about your distribution.

Double at the 1-level, showing two fourcard suits, is safe enough even when vulnerable. Even if partner has no 4-card suit, it doesn't usually lead to accidents as partner can sometimes bid notrumps, or he can bid a 3-card suit and get away with it. Here partner can bid any of the two unbid suits at the 1-level so it is extra safe. Of course it can go wrong, but as some famous player once said: to bid is dangerous, but passing is more dangerous.

[Bbradley62]

Antraxxx, on 2010-November-05, 08:21, said:

I indeed have a maximal hand for a first seat pass, is that what a double tells partner?

Yes, the double would show maximal points with support for the unbid suits. Bidding 1♠ would show a maximal hand with 5 spades which, as Helene points out, don't have to be great spades.

[helene_t]

Bbradley62, on 2010-November-05, 08:39, said:

Yes, the double would show maximal points with support for the unbid suits.

Just to clarify: You should not double with 11 points and 4-3 in the unbid suits. You need four cards in each of them.

[Wackojack]

Why did your partner leave in disgust? Because he was ignorant stupid and rude. The issue as to whether or not the double of 3♣ was for penalties is contentious. Even here there is a measure of agreement that the double does show spades and hearts and a shortage in diamonds and probably (possibly) some tricks in clubs. Your partner had a completely different type of hand and a pass stands out as obvious.

[bucky]

I think 3♠ is clearly wrong. Having passed earlier, I'd have to catch up with 4♠.

If partner has load of clubs, he should pass and be happy to get plus score, as we likely cannot make anything.