[dburn]

Scoring: Chicago

---

First deal of a Chicago; all players of "world class" as defined on BBO and some of them as defined by the world; stakes £30 per 100.

You, South, open 1NT (15-17). Yes, I know. For no bonus credit at all, guess who you are.

West bids 2♠ - natural, no conventional defences permitted.

North bids 3♠. This is defined within the game as "Stayman in principle, but if that's not what he has, he will have some other kind of game force."

East bids 4♠.

You bid 5♥, which West doubles.

North bids 6♣, East passes, and we have finally arrived at the point where the poll question becomes operative.

You need to know that:

If North had doubled 2♠, that would have been penalty;
If North had bid three of a suit other than spades, that would have been natural and non-forcing;
If North had bid four of a minor, that would have been natural and forcing;
Lebensohl is not permitted;
North has no way specifically to ask you to bid 3NT with a spade guard.

Well?

[dburn]

Apologies - don't know how to edit poll questions once posted. Forget redouble (that comes later, if you pass now).

[gnasher]

I've often wondered why world-class players playing for world-class stakes (not to mention the world-class table money) should be obliged to play kitchen-class methods.

From your description of the methods, it sounds as though partner should have diamonds as well as his clubs. With 5-5 in the minors he could have 5NT (unless that's against the rules too?), but maybe he's 5-6.

I bid 6♦. Have I just wasted £426?

[jjbrr]

I'd start with a pass and if the auction comes back to me and we're still contracted for 12 tricks in ♣, I will pass.

[Apollo81]

If partner had something besides a club one suiter, maybe he would have made one of the other two bids available over 5♥X. OK, I'm still not convinced that he doesn't have diamonds also (0157 seems plausible), but I'm passing now.

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Jun 3 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

From your description of the methods, it sounds as though partner should have diamonds as well as his clubs. With 5-5 in the minors he could have 5NT (unless that's against the rules too?), but maybe he's 5-6.

Why? Sounds like he had no spade stopper, maybe he was hoping we would bid 3N and then when we couldn't he would bid 5C. Since we bid 5H he had to bid 6C.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jun 3 2010, 10:05 PM, said:

Why? Sounds like he had no spade stopper, maybe he was hoping we would bid 3N and then when we couldn't he would bid 5C. Since we bid 5H he had to bid 6C.

As I understand it, 3♠ doesn't ask for a spade stopper: it asks if I have four hearts. If I have neither four hearts nor a spade stopper, I'm supposed to bid 3NT, I think. Hence, if it went

  1NT-2♠-3♠-pass
  3NT

responder still wouldn't know if I had a spade stopper.

It's conceivable that he wanted to play in 5♣ opposite a hand with four hearts, and 3NT opposite a hand without four hands, but (a) it's hard to picture such a hand, and (b) it's even harder to imagine his removing 5♥ if he did have that.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-June-03, 15:33

[Jlall]

Hmm I would have thought a hand without 4 hearts and without a spade stopper would not bid 3N.

This means a hand with a spade stopper and 4 hearts might have to just bid 3N without investigating, which is usually fine imo.

It seems way more likely that responder will have some hand that is short in spades and wouldn't want to just bid 3N so tries 3S to see what happens (possibly passing 4H in a 4-3 or bidding 5 of a minor).

[dburn]

gnasher, on Jun 3 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

I've often wondered why world-class players playing for world-class stakes (not to mention the world-class table money) should be obliged to play kitchen-class methods.

Well, from time to time some players whose class is, shall we say, less than world wander into the game. There is no reason why they should have to play any of the rubbi... er, excellent methods that adorn the tournament scene nowadays.

Besides, if we allowed dining-room-at-Le-Gavroche-class methods into the game we would never start a Chicago, let alone finish one. The first half hour after the cut would be taken up by Zia telling his partner what the system was; the half hour after the first hand would be taken up by Zia telling his partner what he ought to have bid according to the system; and the half hour after that would be taken up by trying to remember whose deal it was because after the first hour, everyone would have forgotten. Time is money, and system takes time.

[gnasher]

Quote

Hmm I would have thought a hand without 4 hearts and without a spade stopper would not bid 3N.

This means a hand with a spade stopper and 4 hearts might have to just bid 3N without investigating, which is usually fine imo.

It seems way more likely that responder will have some hand that is short in spades and wouldn't want to just bid 3N so tries 3S to see what happens (possibly passing 4H in a 4-3 or bidding 5 of a minor).

That seems inconsistent with the description "Stayman in principle". But this is mere speculation: I'm not world-class enough to know how these methods work.

[junyi_zhu]

dburn, on Jun 3 2010, 08:26 PM, said:

Scoring: Chicago

---

First deal of a Chicago; all players of "world class" as defined on BBO and some of them as defined by the world; stakes £30 per 100.

You, South, open 1NT (15-17). Yes, I know. For no bonus credit at all, guess who you are.

West bids 2♠ - natural, no conventional defences permitted.

North bids 3♠. This is defined within the game as "Stayman in principle, but if that's not what he has, he will have some other kind of game force."

East bids 4♠.

You bid 5♥, which West doubles.

North bids 6♣, East passes, and we have finally arrived at the point where the poll question becomes operative.

You need to know that:

If North had doubled 2♠, that would have been penalty;
If North had bid three of a suit other than spades, that would have been natural and non-forcing;
If North had bid four of a minor, that would have been natural and forcing;
Lebensohl is not permitted;
North has no way specifically to ask you to bid 3NT with a spade guard.

Well?

seems a clear pass. If partner can't make 6C, that's unlucky. There is no way to expect that partner may hold long D.
He may easily hold - Kx xxx KQJTxxxx

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Jun 3 2010, 04:50 PM, said:

But this is mere speculation: I'm not world-class enough to know how these methods work.

lol

[dburn]

gnasher, on Jun 3 2010, 04:50 PM, said:

That seems inconsistent with the description "Stayman in principle". But this is mere speculation: I'm not world-class enough to know how these methods work.

Oh, they don't work. But at least we don't have to fill in convention cards or worry about alerting, since no one knows what anyone else is doing anyway.

[Fluffy]

everything seems inconsistent, but my best guess is partner has spade singleton and willed to play slam in clubs if we didn't stop spades. So I pass.

[Codo]

If partner had a club one suiter he had been able to bid 3 or 6 NT or 4, 5 or 6 clubs instead of 3 ♠.
If the choice of 3 NT/5 club is whether or not we have a stopper, why did he ask for our heart length? Would you ask for the way to the airport if you are looking for a gas station?

So he cannot have a one-suiter. I play him for the minors and bid 6 ♦.

[gwnn]

Well fair enough Codo but you're playing partner to have asked about the airport when he was interested in the kindergarten. I would pass 6C but I wonder why I am answering at all, I would barely be able to pay for a partscore swing in this game.

[whereagles]

gnasher, on Jun 3 2010, 08:55 PM, said:

I've often wondered why world-class players playing for world-class stakes (not to mention the world-class table money) should be obliged to play kitchen-class methods.

From your description of the methods, it sounds as though partner should have diamonds as well as his clubs. With 5-5 in the minors he could have 5NT (unless that's against the rules too?), but maybe he's 5-6.

I bid 6♦. Have I just wasted £426?

ditto

[bid_em_up]

This is a trick question.

If my partner is "world class" as defined by BBO standards, I am forced to believe partner would not comprehend that this sequence might imply both minors and is simply bidding 6♣ to make, so I pass.

If my partner is truly World Class, then 6♦ is worth considering, but I would still pass (not being World Class myself, I would not comprehend that this sequence might imply both minors!!).

If it gets doubled and comes back to me, of course, I redouble. Why not, playing at these stakes I must be able to afford it anyway!!!

[hanp]

With both minors partner could have bid 5S or 5NT.

[Jlall]

hanp, on Jun 4 2010, 11:28 AM, said:

With both minors partner could have bid 5S or 5NT.

5S? Isn't that a grand slam try in hearts?

5N sounds like grand slam force in rubber bridge, not sure if they bid 5N pick a slam