[kayin801]

I said:

1)

Scoring: IMP

(1NT, 15-17)-P-(2♥ xfer)-?

---

2) Playing SAYC, partner is a beginner, but would understand/be made to understand 3♣ as a limit raise

Scoring: IMP

(1NT, 15-17)-P-(2♥ xfer)-?

---

[rogerclee]

1) 3H
2) 2S

[gwnn]

1) 3H
2) x (like I usually do with 3433)

[bluecalm]

Quote

1) 3H
2) x (like I usually do with 3433)

I agree.

[the hog]

3H
2S
Easy, peasy.

[mikeh]

I respect 3♥ on the first one, but I know that at the table I'd double and then, in the post-mortem, probably regret being chicken.

On the second one, doubling strikes me as very misjudged. it works ok if partner bids hearts, but is horrible over 2♠ or 3♦ or if the opps bid 3♣ on our left.

We won't know what to do if partner bids 2♠, since we held a gun to his head, while concealing the support that might have caused him to make a gametry. Over 3♦, 3♠ sounds like too big a bid (this hand is NOT a limit raise with 4 hearts). And the same problem arises if they bump to 3♣ over our double....we can raise 3♠ to 4♠ but won't know what to do over any other call.

So call me boring (and chicken) but 2♠ seems clear to me. I will raise a long suit heart try so I am not giving up on hearts entirely.

Oh, and the hint that partner would understand 3♣ as a limit raise doesn't help me. This hand isn't a limit raise. 4333 shape, no top spade card, Q10x in a suit that a red v white opp overcalled in....ugh. I'm not convinced, playing constructive raises, that this is a limit raise in a non-competitive auction...I am certain it isn't in the posted auction.

[Jlall]

X is fine with hand 2 if you are going to treat your hand as a limit raise, but you cannot double with less than a LR and 3 spades.

IMO this hand is not a 3 card limit raise so i bid 2S.

[Free]

Good point by Justin. I was also going to Dbl on the 2nd hand, and I don't think this is worht a limit raise. So 2♠ will probably work out better.

First hand I think is a clear 3♥.

[mcphee]

Equal colors it seems a little risky to me to bid 3H when we are not at all sure what is going on yet with this first hand. I feel this problem is more of a partnership agreement position. I am not the sort who would bid dble of the xfer to just suggest the lead, it is more of a dble to say I would have bid H at my turn and want to compete. Should they rest in 2S after dble I can bid 2N to show a 6- 4 .


This second hand is not a LR situation to me so a simple 2S it is. These balanced hands are not the sort to try and encourage partner to bid game unless they hold a hand that would make some try, and I will find that out when I bid 2S.

[gwnn]

I didn't express myself well, I like x on 3433 when hearts are good and spades bad, like this hand. I just realised that when I was thinking of why was that my first reaction. I think mikeh is being a little dramatic when he says that double is very misjudged but I am not sure if I have anything to back this up with. Maybe the fact that he says 'it works ok when partner bids hearts' whereas I would say it works splendidly when partner bids hearts.

[mikeh]

gwnn, on May 27 2010, 07:27 AM, said:

I didn't express myself well, I like x on 3433 when hearts are good and spades bad, like this hand. I just realised that when I was thinking of why was that my first reaction. I think mikeh is being a little dramatic when he says that double is very misjudged but I am not sure if I have anything to back this up with. Maybe the fact that he says 'it works ok when partner bids hearts' whereas I would say it works splendidly when partner bids hearts.

did you consider what happens when partner doesn't bid hearts? Or if LHO raises clubs and partner doesn't bid hearts?

Unless you are far luckier, or wiser, in your choice of partners than I have been, there is an excellent chance that partner won't be bidding hearts. Then what? As Justin said, far more succintly than I, double then spades is a limit raise, and you don't hold one.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Unless you are far luckier, or wiser, in your choice of partners than I have been, there is an excellent chance that partner won't be bidding hearts. Then what?

I admit I didn't think about what happens if they raise. I was happy to pass 2♠ if they don't. I am convinced, I am now 2♠ bidder.

[gwnn]

mikeh, on May 27 2010, 03:48 PM, said:

did you consider what happens when partner doesn't bid hearts? Or if LHO raises clubs and partner doesn't bid hearts?

Yes I did.

All I said that it was a little exaggerated to call 'very misjudged' double with good hearts and xxx of spades. I wanted to say that you were also unfair when you wrote 'it works ok if partner bids hearts' as if it was a case when the two styles are approximately equal. In reality, if partner bids hearts my double is a great success. I concede that bidding hearts from partner is not the single most likely outcome but we should compare the two cases fairly. I will lose some hands where we miss game or partscore, and win some hands where my partner doesn't overcompete or we find hearts. To make myself clear, I am not going to bid spades if opponents compete. There is another thing going for double with bad spades, that way if opps compete and partner has 6 spades, he will likely have some suit quality so sometimes when he had an easy time competing/bidding game he will also be able to bid 3 spades over our double.

Overall I am very happy with showing fit whenever possible but I sometimes hide support if I am 4x3. It is sometimes painful when I raise with 4333s and partner has a legitimate 3/3 bid but nobody makes anything. At least when I double it is a compromise, I get to show a little values and some of my shape and when I raise my partner will be more successful in his competing.

All this said, there is a looming feeling in me that x with 3433 (and poor spades) works well with a limit raise and with relatively poor hands since then missing games will occur less frequently so maybe this particular hand is not the best one for the style I've been trying to describe.

[aguahombre]

Ok, I am convinced:

1)X
2) 2♠

Same as 40 years ago.

[OleBerg]

1) Closer to 4♥, than not bidding 3♥.
2) X, wtp?