[rogerclee]

helene_t, on Jul 14 2008, 06:41 AM, said:

Somewhat surprised that everybody bids 4♠ - I may bid 4♠ as well but I consider it close.

Does partner promise six good spades? Wouldn't AJxxxx be enough?

Partner doesn't promise good spades, but 10+ of his 13 cards are in the majors, and his strength isn't in hearts. Also if partner doesn't have good spades, 3NT is fairly likely to go down anyway.

[han]

Roger had this hand and bid 4S.

[helene_t]

cherdano, on Jul 14 2008, 05:39 AM, said:

This is the A/E forum, only beginners play 2N as non-forcing.

It is hard to be an Acol- (or SAYC-) player at this forum

[FrancesHinden]

cherdano, on Jul 14 2008, 05:39 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 13 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

han, on Jul 14 2008, 04:03 AM, said:

Practice bidding, IMPs assumed.

x
AKx
J9xx
AJxxx

1S - 2C
2H - 2NT
3S - ??

Agree with the auction to date? What now?

Disagree with the auction.

Why would I bid a non-forcing 2NT with 13 hcp.

This is the A/E forum, only beginners play 2N as non-forcing.

I had better stop posting here then.

Unless I'm playing 2/1, then 2NT = natural, invitational. What is the problem with all these natural bids?

[han]

I'm sure cherdano was joking, but of course it was clear to Cascade from the context that we were playing 2/1.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 14 2008, 10:45 AM, said:

cherdano, on Jul 14 2008, 05:39 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 13 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

han, on Jul 14 2008, 04:03 AM, said:

Practice bidding, IMPs assumed.

x
AKx
J9xx
AJxxx

1S - 2C
2H - 2NT
3S - ??

Agree with the auction to date? What now?

Disagree with the auction.

Why would I bid a non-forcing 2NT with 13 hcp.

This is the A/E forum, only beginners play 2N as non-forcing.

I had better stop posting here then.

Unless I'm playing 2/1, then 2NT = natural, invitational. What is the problem with all these natural bids?

Didn't mean to confuse things with the un-natural forcing 2NT.

[benlessard]

3Nt i would find it insulting if my partner bid 4s with a small stiff.

[fred]

gnasher, on Jul 14 2008, 07:39 AM, said:

I think 4♥ should be a cue bid agreeing spades.  The given hand is the only type of hand where we might consider a natural 4♥, but everyone here is bidding either 3NT or 4♠.  Apparently we don't need a natural 4♥ bid anyway.

Why not bid a natural 4H with the actual hand?

I would go as far as to say that, as long as you wouldn't bid 2NT with a spade void, 4H with the hand in question is obvious. Unless partner's system notes or imagination are running wild, 4H now will give him a very good idea of what your hand looks like. He should be in a good position to Pass 4H with something like:

AKxxxx
QJ10x
Qx
x

But to convert to 4S if his long suit is more appropriate for playing opposite a singleton.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[benlessard]

Quote

He should be in a good position to Pass 4H with something like:

AKxxxx
QJ10x
Qx
x

Still not sure how 4H can be better then 3Nt. 2Nt should show at least a stiff spades. opener with Hx in clubs will bid 3C. With KQJ9xx or better he will bid 4S over 3Nt anyway. Partner has to have Hx in diamonds wich IMO should make 3Nt the best game most of the time. On a good day we can count 4H tricks 1C and 1D. So we only need 3S tricks. While in 4S we will need S to behave. Also i believe that with an unclear hand playable in 3 strain partner will bid 3D and not 3S. Maybe its just me but 3D tend to suggest stronger suits or stronger hand then a direct 3M bid. For example

2Nt---3D
3H----3S should suggest 4S or 3Nt but with goodies or with good spades.

While

2Nt----3S is a weaker less solid spades

2Nt---3D
3H----4H is stronger then

2Nt----3H
4H

[fred]

benlessard, on Jul 15 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

Quote

He should be in a good position to Pass 4H with something like:

AKxxxx
QJ10x
Qx
x

Still not sure how 4H can be better then 3Nt. 2Nt should show at least a stiff spades. opener with Hx in clubs will bid 3C. With KQJ9xx or better he will bid 4S over 3Nt anyway. Partner has to have Hx in diamonds wich IMO should make 3Nt the best game most of the time.

I don't think partner has to have a doubleton diamond honor. How about the same example hand without the Queen of diamonds? If partner has that then 4H is likely to make and 3NT is likely to fail.

Also partner could have xx in clubs - would you really bid 3C over 2NT with that club holding? I suspect that plenty of strong players would not bid 3C here even if they held Qx or Jx.

Even if partner has a doubleton diamond honor, 4 of a major could easily be right. For example, opposite something like the following hand both 4H and 4S are significantly better than 3NT.

KQxxxx
QJ10x
Ax
x

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Codo]

I am so happy that Fred bid here 4 ♥, becauseto methat this is the only sensible bid here.

I have denied 4 hearts already.
So this holding is surely the best holding I can have in Hearts.
My spade holding is the worst I can have for my bidding so far, so there is no need to rush to 4 Spade. If 4 Spade is right, pd will bid it now, there is no rule that he must pass 4 Heart.

My diamond holding makes 3 NT a real bad idea, if pd has AKQxxx,Qxxx,Qx,x he does not need to rebid his spades.

[gnasher]

fred, on Jul 15 2008, 12:11 AM, said:

Why not bid a natural 4H with the actual hand?

Hmm. I don't normally allow my mind to be changed by reading other people's opinions, but some of your examples are quite compelling. Also, 4♥ as a cue-bid isn't especially useful, since you have 4♣ and 4♦ available.

[kenrexford]

Just to provide examples of where 4♥ as a cue would be useful...

You need to first establish cuebid style as to a 4♣ call. Ooutside of clubs,

♠Kx ♥AKx ♦QJx(x)

The spade could be A/K/Q; the hearts AK/AQ/KQ, or just A/K; no diamond A/K.

If Aces-first, no club Ace. Add ♣KQJx(x). Lessen somewhat if this is too strong.

If a cue of own suit shows two of the top three, AJ10x(x), for example.

If a cue of 4♣ is just a control, QJ10x(x) perhaps.

I have been persuaded that 4♠ might be wrong, though. I think 3NT makes more and more sense. Partner can insist. I probably might have better bid 3NT the first time, though. (1♠-2minor-2♥-3NT) For me, though, that 3NT would in some partnerships be conventional.

[skjaeran]

I disagree with Ken (above)

I'd need something more in the diamond department to suggest 3NT here.

4♦ would be my only spade slam try (no cuebid).

With this hand I have an easy 4♥. Partner will know when to pass and when to correct to 4♠; look at Fred's excellent post on this issue.

[gnasher]

skaeran, on Jul 16 2008, 06:37 AM, said:

4♦ would be my only spade slam try (no cuebid).

What sort of hand would 4♣ show?

[skjaeran]

gnasher, on Jul 16 2008, 09:12 AM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 16 2008, 06:37 AM, said:

4♦ would be my only spade slam try (no cuebid).

What sort of hand would 4♣ show?

I'm not playing straight 2/1, so a 3♣ rebid would be invitational only for me.

4♣ now would be natural and slammish, but denying a self-sufficient suit.

Of course, this isn't really applicable for others, who play 2♣ as GF. In straight 2/1 4♣ now most probably should be a cuebid agreeing spades, and 4♦ too - according to cuebidding style.

[benlessard]

My personnal understanding is that

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt

3S show 6S (not good quality) and ask if partner can raise with 2S
3H show 5H (not good quality) and ask partner to raise with 3H
This is fairly standard i think.

Now the not so obvious part and probably not standard but IMO still "common sense" is that 3D is asking for a preference.

Its to be able to find partial fits. 4-3 or 5-2H fit or a 6- stiff honor S fit.

With

KJT98 in H,
or KJ987x in S i would bid 3D not 3M. This is because im searching for a preference not a full raise.

So

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D-----???

3H show at least Hx in hearts may have S preference also
3S show at least a stiff spade honor or xx in S.
3Nt neither of the above or minors well stopped.

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D-----3H
4H show very good hearts (a preference by partner is enough support)


1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D-----3S
4S show very good spades (a preference by partner is enough support)

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D-----3H
3S show very good spades but not very good hearts

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D-----3H
3Nt == denies having 6 good spades and by default showing 4 good heart so that partner can raise with HHx or Hxx in hearts. ----This 1 you can deduce it at the table but its better if you speak to your partner about it.

1S-----2C
2H-----2Nt
3D---- to be able to raise to 4H here you need both Hxx in H and a xx or stiff honnor in spades.


With a 6421

I would bid 3D if i feel that a 4-3 H fit or a 6-1 stiff H might be better. But I will bid 3S if im looking for xx or better support in S.

With a 55?? i would bid 3H if i want partner to raise me with xxx in H. But I will bid 3D if Hx in heart in good enough.

[benlessard]

With

x
AKx
J9xx
Ajxxx

its a bit tricky since we have no source of tricks and we often need the spades to be established.

1-- S need to be breaking so might as well be playing in 4S.
2-- if we play in H maybe we can setup the S with some ruffs.


I really think that partner would have bid 3C with Kx or Qx in clubs. If partner got solid spades we will play in 4S anyway (or for me he would have bid 3D not 3S). I also dont think partner can have QJTx in hearts and bid 3S at least not my partner. So partner got to have something in the minors Hx in diamonds or a stiff club honnor and 2 diamonds.

If partner spades are

KQxxxx or similar.

then hes got the QH
and probably the ace of diamonds or the K and some jacks.

3Nt is hopeless. 4S need S 3-3 and 4H need S 3-3 and H to behave. Despite being likely to lose 3 trumps and a diamond trick you prefer to play in S because 3Nt is hopeless.

If partner spades are

AKxxxx or AQxxxx

3Nt might make with 3 minor tricks. 4H and 2 spades tricks while 4S will need S to behave and 4H seems as good as 3Nt.

Maybe 4H is better then 3Nt after all. But im surely not raising to 4S here.

[kenrexford]

It seems like, with so many bridge bidding problems, that the "answer" depends in part on agreement variations leading up to the critical decision. For example, Harald noted how his call depends on his 2/1 almost GF. Some would have an impact of 2♠ handling doubleton honor situations, as opposed to true support. Some would have the impact of Opener bidding a club partial, or even 3♦ as an artificial asking bid. The end result is a lot of intelligent argument that results in inconsistent interpretations because of assumptions that tailor needs at this point in the auction. Even present issues, like cuebidding style, affects the decision.