[helene_t]

Idd Jimmy, all the others are more or less protected by cartels. Maybe life style gurus and car salesmen offer fair prices as well, though.

[blackshoe]

Are drug dealers governed by supply and demand? Certainly the cost on the supply side of doing business is artificially inflated by the problems (from the dealer's viewpoint) caused by laws and law enforcement types. That cost is certainly passed on to the buyer, so from his viewpoint the cost of his drugs is higher - probably a lot higher - than it would be if the drugs weren't proscribed.

[NickRW]

mikeh, on Jun 9 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Maybe I am overly sensitive, and maybe this was supposed to be funny.. if so, I confess I don't get the joke.

As a professional... as a member of a self-governing profession with a strict Code of Ethics...

Stop right there.

1. Some years ago, when we sold our first house, it was a time when house prices were slipping. The house went on the market, as is the custom, at a slightly optimistic asking price. Twice I had to contact the estate agent to suggest that they put the price down - they never suggested this. Never the less there were still no appointments to view. Eventually I got fed up and sold it myself.

2. One of my children is dyslexic. You might have thought that teachers, or some other professional persons assisting teachers, would be able to diagnose this. No. I had educate myself about educational problems in order to find out for myself and tell the school. A year later, after they had decided I was right and changed the child's educational program we went to a parent/teacher evening and one teacher who hadn't really been in the loop earler beamed, "your child is doing so much better after we found out he is dyslexic..." Yeah, right.

3. Various other issues with same school and 2 other previous schools that would have me writing for a long time and get extremely annoyed about.

4. When we sold our last house we originally wanted solicitor x to do the conveyancing work. For some weird reason this solicitor was unnaceptable to the mortgage company, so we had to pick one off their approved list. Hmm. The chain was complete - there was no reason not to move on the legal details with anything other than the utmost haste. Some weeks later, after taking the 3rd somewhat irate and exasperated call from my estate agent that the chain was about to fall apart if we didn't get a bomb under the solicitor, I started throwing my weight about. I found out that the person actually assigned to do the work was moonlighting and stacking up cases. A suggestion to the firm that I should perhaps report this to the law society and suddenly my case was being handled by a senior partner and progressed within half the time the other lady had been sitting on it already. It was all very well that they fixed it - it shouldn't have needed fixing in the first place though.

5. What I regard as a serious case of professional incompetence in the medical profession affecting family member x that I won't go into the personal detail about, except to say that it was another case of I had to tell them what was wrong after they had failed to diagnose something until it was too late.

6. Somewhat similar medical case affecting another family member.

7. Only a week or so ago I got an apology from the regional head of the RSPCA for the rude and unjustified bahaviour of one of their staff. Details unnecessary - they were wrong and had to admit it.

8. Veterinary surgeons that don't even know that guinea pigs are fatally allergic to penicillin is another thing. You'd think that they would know this wouldn't you. Not all of them do. Some of them you have to ask, "what have you got in that syringe" and be prepared to leave with your animal in a hurry.

In other words, don't talk to me about "professionals" with "codes of conduct". I work as a computer consultant. I am not a member of any professional body. If I don't get results, I don't get paid. Simple as that.

Nick

[mike777]

1) I went to law school but never practiced law
2) My Grandfather and a zillion of my inlaws are lawyers...some semi famous....
3) I sold my first house( long ago)..lawyer was a joke..I am 4000 miles away at closing but on phone...lawyer tells me at closing a bunch of silly stuff and if I do not pay more we cannot close...I fire back....1) do not close...2) calling another lawyer to sue now...3) calling your local bar assoc. now.....4) he called me back..we closed........
4) refi house few years ago.....legal documents a joke.....I did not even own the house per the documents.
5) sued in Germany over Mercedes bought in Germany..refused delivery...wrong color...options..etc......after 3 long years won case.....German lawyer was pretty good.
6) sued my ex company again 5000 miles away..huge ny wall street company, very famous.....my lawyer was bad...other lawyer...much worse.......judges...(more than one) complete joke. I won but whole process joke.
7) I was a defendent( along with hundreds) in huge famous case.....my company....not same as above but super famous....great book written about case....I know many players in the book.
Bottom line....i lost zero money but my company lost alot and should have lost alot more......main players in company, sorry to say I knew them at end.....were a joke..complete crooks......super crooks....
8) I know from the famous Enron case 2 lawyers and one accountant.....One lawyer(other not famous but my sister in law and ok, cute and still single ) and the Accountant are semi famous and in my view....100% nice people and not guilty.
9) btw as I write this watching my fav dvd show Perry Mason......from late 1950's

[EricK]

Apollo81, on Jun 9 2008, 07:40 PM, said:

Lawyers make a lot of money but I don't think they're overpaid. The lawyers my age I know all work whenever they're not eating or sleeping and have huge law school debt, so they should make a lot.

They have a huge law school debt because they make so much money. i.e Lawyers make a lot of money, therefore people are prepared to pay more to become lawyers, therfore law schools can afford to raise their prices.

[Gerben42]

I know many lawyer bridge players, but I've never been in contact with a lawyer about law stuff.

I don't know any drug dealer, but I do know pharmacists and that's not an easy job...

Estate agents? I'm hoping for a future where they are not needed anymore, but they seem to do a useful job. Don't know if their fee is appropriate or not.

Window salesmen? If I want double windows, I'll get them myself? Do they come to your house and try to sell them to you in your area?

Car salesmen: Mine gave me a good deal

Financial advisors: I found mine very helpful dealing with all the complicated financial stuff in Germany.

Life style gurus: I think these are great, just don't spend any money on them if you're smart but people seem to need them.

Athletes: I'd prefer it that the famous one would have to pay sports tax, so that the non-famous ones can compete even though they are not attracting zilliions of spectators. For example if Tiger Woods would pay the USBF so that they can send a team with all cost reimbursed. In that case no sponsor for the Bermuda Bowl would be needed.

[jtfanclub]

Put me down for Insurance agents/HMOs claim agents.

They're the only occupation I know who gets paid to NOT work. As in, the more they can refuse to help you, the more they get paid.

A lawyer has to worry about repeat business and the bar. A lifestyle guru's reputation is everything. And so forth. But I seriously doubt that any HMO agent has lost his job because he refused to pay a claim, and made the poor guy go through arbitration.

Wasn't it "the Incredibles" that made fun of this? God help you if you actually try to work with the customer. At least the IRS agent has no financial incentive to make your life a living hell.

[helene_t]

Reminds me of a system administrator at the first place I worked for. He had made a database called "complaints". You could enter customer complaint forms into it. Out of curiosity I tried to run a query on the database to see what kind of complaints had been filed. That made the system crash.

Me: "How am I supposed to get data out of the complaint database?"
SA: "You aren't. The DB is a black hole, and intensionally so".

[kenberg]

helene_t, on Jun 10 2008, 09:33 AM, said:

Reminds me of a system administrator at the first place I worked for. He had made a database called "complaints". You could enter customer complaint forms into it. Out of curiosity I tried to run a query on the database to see what kind of complaints had been filed. That made the system crash.

Me: "How am I supposed to get data out of the complaint database?"
SA: "You aren't. The DB is a black hole, and intensionally so".

Absolutely correct. We moved a couple of years back and called to have cable for the computer installed. Some days later, I was looking out the window and saw some guys digging up the front lawn. I investigated and found out that they were from the cable company. So I called the company and said that if someone is going to dig up my lawn I expect them to ring the doorbell and identify themselves before beginning. The woman on the other end was very well trained. She apologized profusely and assured me that she completely agreed with me. I said I wanted a callback from someone other than herself to assure me that this had made it past the first stage and she assured me that someone would be calling me very shortly. OK, two years and counting. Best I didn't hold my breath until the phone rang.

I don't complain that often but some years back, during my single years, I felt that the son of a woman I was dating had been treated badly by the police. I had given them a cat, cats look alike, a neighbor guy claimed the cat was his (it wasn't) and called the police who took the cat from the kid with no checking with anyone. A police rep came out, I explained (I thought completely) and the rep explained that the officer had behaved exactly correctly. But the rep had misunderstood what I had said and when he finally got it, he again explained that the officer had behaved exactly correctly even though this newly understood exactly correct behavior was now in direct opposition to the original presumed exactly correct behavior.


This so-called self-regulating, self-policing, self-correcting stuff is a crock of *****, pure and simple. The home loan industry is self-regulating, is it not? Those guys have managed to eff the entire country and get rich doing it.


Very fortunately I have had little need for lawyers in my life. The limited experience that I have had has been mixed. Very mixed. Some are definitely very good and have been helpful getting things done correctly. Mostly I think that the entire legal system in this country is embarrassing. When my older daughter was in high school I took her to watch a court in action (circuit court or district court or something, I don't remember) as part of a school assignment. It was not uplifting. At one point a young black male defendant (well, sort of a defendant) was brought from the jail and appeared in front of the judge. No charges were read. The judge asked him why he was there. He said he didn't know. No one could find anyone who could explain why the man had been in jail or why he was in front of the judge. Maybe he had been drunk. Maybe he killed someone. Who knows? The judge told him he could go. Every so often I read that a serious criminal has been inadvertently released from custody. I don't doubt it.

[mr1303]

I vote for banks.

I get charged about £40 ($80) for going over my overdraft for 3 days, when it was the bank's fault. They say it is a payment review fee, made automatically by a computer...

[mycroft]

I am a reasonably paid professional (even though I do not work explicitly in my Profession, I could). However, when there was trouble in my life and I was a not-reasonably paid professional, I needed a lawyer. At the time, a reasonably-priced lawyer's hour's time for the work I needed (most of which, I am sure, was done by the para) was half-a-week's gross pay for me.

Of course, I needed the lawyer, *now*, to get the help I needed for the trouble to find a conclusion that might - just might (thankfully, did) - restore my ability to do my job. Luckily I had support. Luckily I didn't have to pay the medical bills for the treatment that the lawyer's help allowed me to receive, either - we aren't talking "a couple of hours" of that.

There are things in this world that require lawyers to have any reasonable chance of not causing a massive problem (wills and property transfers come to mind). When those necessary things' cost is a week's wages for a fulltime minimum wage worker, there's a problem with the world.

Was it worth a week's salary to be the person I am today? Of course it was - and more. Did I *have* a week's salary, not "to spare", but at all? No. Are there likely to be many, many others whose profit to society is being nullified because of the same issue, who don't have my luck? Hell, yes.

Please note that this is a problem with the world, not just with lawyers, and in particular not just with a particular lawyer. Of course, I've said for years (only half-jokingly) that the job of any politician is to ensure employment for their children, currently entering Law School, just like Daddie did for her. But then again, I know several classmates who got their B.Eng not to do Engineering, but to go MBA and work management for a heavy-Engineering company (like the Oil business), so that's not unique either.