[catch22]

Scoring: IMP

---

1C-(1S)-?

1C is either natural or balanced 11-14.

What now?

[rogerclee]

2NT. Kind of an overbid, but what else?

[helene_t]

Why is 2N an overbid? Is it forcing? If the range for weak balanced hands in the 1♣ opener is as wide as 11-14, you cannot play 1NT as a sign-off opposite that range and 2NT as a force.

[rogerclee]

helene_t, on Jun 8 2008, 03:57 AM, said:

Why is 2N an overbid?

2N is an overbid because this is more or less the worst possible 12-count I can hold. I have nothing in partner's suit, no suit of my own, an overvalued ♠A, and ♥QJ doubleton.

I play a 1NT in competition here is around 8 upwards to a bad 11. I think this hand is about as good as an average 11-count.

[gnasher]

2♦, because it improves our chances both of rightsiding 3NT and of playing in 3♣ if it's a partscore hand. If partner rebids 2NT, I'll raise to game; if he bids 2♥ (presumably promising five clubs), I'll bid 3♣.

If partner does bid 2NT after my 2♦, I don't think it promises any kind of stop, but if he does have Qx or K10x I've done something good.

[han]

gnasher, on Jun 8 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

2♦, because it improves our chances both of rightsiding 3NT and of playing in 3♣ if it's a partscore hand. If partner rebids 2NT, I'll raise to game; if he bids 2♥ (presumably promising five clubs), I'll bid 3♣.

What do you expect your partner to bid with xxx KQ10x Ax KJxx?

[gnasher]

han, on Jun 9 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

What do you expect your partner to bid with xxx KQ10x Ax KJxx?

I'm a bit of a purist about this: balanced hands without diamond support bid 2NT, and anything else shows an unbalanced hand or 18+. If you made your example more extreme - eg xxx KQ10x xx AKJx - I might grit my teeth and bid 2♥.

Notice though, that with xxx opposite Axxx you should still put the overcaller on lead, in case he has KJ109x and doesn't lead the king.

It might be possible to make more use of 2♠ - perhaps showing a weak notrump without a spade stop and initiating a scramble.

[han]

Interesting. Now I agree that in some of these auctions where you are forced at the 2-level you have to bid 2NT without a stopper. But the more room there is, the less need there is to do so. In another thread Frances claims that the system bid after 1D-(2C) - Dbl - (p) is 2NT even with Axx Axx KQxxx xx (although she admitted that she might deviate from system on this hand). To me this is idiocy (the system, not Frances). There is so much room between 2C and 2NT that you don't need to bid 2NT without a stopper. I'd rather give up on the descriptive 2D call, especially since parrtner may be fairly light for the double and 2NT might be too high (besides the chance of being off the first so-many tricks in their suit).

Here we are slightly higher and partner will indeed bid 2NT without a stopper on some hands. However I would still prefer to bid 2H when I have 4 of them and no spade stopper, I give up on 2H being unbalanced.

[pclayton]

han, on Jun 9 2008, 02:52 AM, said:

Interesting. Now I agree that in some of these auctions where you are forced at the 2-level you have to bid 2NT without a stopper. But the more room there is, the less need there is to do so. In another thread Frances claims that the system bid after 1D-(2C) - Dbl - (p) is 2NT even with Axx Axx KQxxx xx (although she admitted that she might deviate from system on this hand). To me this is idiocy (the system, not Frances). There is so much room between 2C and 2NT that you don't need to bid 2NT without a stopper. I'd rather give up on the descriptive 2D call, especially since parrtner may be fairly light for the double and 2NT might be too high (besides the chance of being off the first so-many tricks in their suit).

Here we are slightly higher and partner will indeed bid 2NT without a stopper on some hands. However I would still prefer to bid 2H when I have 4 of them and no spade stopper, I give up on 2H being unbalanced.

As a sidebar, let's say you are playing 1♣ as clubs or balanced.

If we held xxx Axx KQxx xxx and the bidding started 1♣ - (1♥) many of us now have the 1♠ gizmo which says, I have cards, but I don't want to bid NT. I would go so far as to say we would make the call with an additional K, which is approximately the same strength as the OP's hand.

So, 1♣ - (1♠) - ?

Doesn't Switch work in this sequence?

2♦ = hearts
2♥ = diamonds

I could see extending this so that:

2♣ = simple raise
2♠ = cards (not necessarily a club raise, but not ruling one out either).
2N = natural with a positional stop

[FrancesHinden]

han, on Jun 9 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

Interesting. Now I agree that in some of these auctions where you are forced at the 2-level you have to bid 2NT without a stopper. But the more room there is, the less need there is to do so. In another thread Frances claims that the system bid after 1D-(2C) - Dbl - (p) is 2NT even with Axx Axx KQxxx xx (although she admitted that she might deviate from system on this hand). To me this is idiocy (the system, not Frances). There is so much room between 2C and 2NT that you don't need to bid 2NT without a stopper. I'd rather give up on the descriptive 2D call, especially since parrtner may be fairly light for the double and 2NT might be too high (besides the chance of being off the first so-many tricks in their suit).

Ah... now we are getting somewhere... you are saying that you are effectively playing 2D as artificial because it's lower than 2NT. SO you bid 2D as your 'default' bid on minimum hands without a club stop, without a 4-card major etc.

That still gives poor partner a problem with his 4423 9-count. I have to play in 2NT with insufficient high cards (and possibly insufficient stops). You have to play in a 4-2 fit. Or if partner has the deadly Kxxx KQxx x Jxxx what does he do over 2D?

Actually, the real answer is that if the auction is about to start 1D (2C) x then we should be playing weak NT.

[FrancesHinden]

pclayton, on Jun 9 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

If we held xxx Axx KQxx xxx and the bidding started 1♣ - (1♥) many of us now have the 1♠ gizmo which says, I have cards, but I don't want to bid NT. I would go so far as to say we would make the call with an additional K, which is approximately the same strength as the OP's hand.

My 1S gizmo is unlimited in high cards. OK, if you have enough high cards you will have a heart stop but I would still bid 1S on

AKQ
5432
AKQ
AKQ

(minus some of the honours to give partner an opening bid)

[nige1]

catch22, on Jun 8 2008, 04:48 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣-(1♠)-??
1♣ is either natural or balanced 11-14.
What now?

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IMO 2♦ = 10, 2N = 5
In auctions like these, you sometimes have to bid a minor on 3 cards, so 4 is a luxury
If partner bids 2♠ you might try 3♠

[Apollo81]

han, on Jun 9 2008, 06:14 AM, said:

gnasher, on Jun 8 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

2♦, because it improves our chances both of rightsiding 3NT and of playing in 3♣ if it's a partscore hand.  If partner rebids 2NT, I'll raise to game; if he bids 2♥ (presumably promising five clubs), I'll bid 3♣.

What do you expect your partner to bid with xxx KQ10x Ax KJxx?

Agree with 2♦. On han's hand I'd bid 2♥, which is not a reverse since I was forced to rebid above 2 of my suit.