[louisg]

Scoring: IMP

---

1♥-2♦
2♠-3♣

2♦=GF unless opener shows a minimum and responder rebids 3♦
2♠=extra values, GF, almost always 4+ cards
3♣=natural

It seems to me that reasonable options for South include:

3♦ -- marking time and looking for more information
4NT -- quantitative
5NT -- pick a slam

3NT would clearly be an underbid, and 4♦ would show better support in the partnership style.

What is your choice, and why? Are there any other options to consider?

[gnasher]

3♦, planning to bid a natural 4NT over 3♥, 3♠ or 3NT; over 4♦ I'll cue bid 4♥. Not sure what I'll do over 4♣.

[Apollo81]

3♦, which is both the best description of your hand and the bid that allows partner the most room to describe his.

[Halo]

I like a quantitative 4NT.

I'm not convinced that I will gain much information from a slow auction, and I may just lose a good opportunity to describe my strong balanced hand.

[andy_h]

3♦ - certainly the best description. I have such a nice hand that I don't want to take up too much room without exploring further.

[kenrexford]

These problems are difficult to answer competently without more knowledge of the systemic agreements.

My inclination is toward 3♦, but what might happen next? I may be looking for more information, but what "more information" might I hear about?

[nige1]

louisg, on Jun 5 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♥-2♦2♠-3♣

2♦=GF unless opener shows a minimum and responder rebids 3♦
2♠=extra values, GF, almost always 4+ cards
3♣=natural

It seems to me that reasonable options for South include:
3♦ -- marking time and looking for more information
4NT -- quantitative
5NT -- pick a slam
3NT would clearly be an underbid, and 4♦ would show better support in the partnership style.VWhat is your choice, and why?  Are there any other options to consider?

---

IMO 3♦ = 10, 5N=4. 4N = 2.
Best hope for grand is that partner shows delayed preference with ♥Q e.g.
♠ Ax ♥ Q ♦ KJxxxx ♣ xxxx is (just) playable in 7 ♥

[neilkaz]

3♦ hoping for more info

[jdonn]

I don't think 4NT is wrong by definition. I just think 3♦ is a lot better.

[louisg]

Almost unanimous support for 3♦; I must admit I'm a little surprised. Is anyone worried about protecting the ♠K in a possible 6NT contract? Over 3♦ partner could easily be forced to rebid 3NT with nothing in spades.

[gnasher]

louisg, on Jun 6 2008, 04:23 AM, said:

Is anyone worried about protecting the ♠K in a possible 6NT contract? Over 3♦ partner could easily be forced to rebid 3NT with nothing in spades.

That would be a problem only if partner couldn't bid 3H, so we'd have to have 12 fast tricks without needing the heart suit, eg xx x KQJxx(x) KQJx(x) or a hand with a choice of routes to 12 tricks, like xx Q KQxxxx KQJx.

Bidding notrumps has two downsides: we'd have to bid four of them in order to express our values, making it harder to find the right contract if we belong in a suit or if we have a grand slam on, and 4NT is a slight underbid.

I realise that this last part isn't quite consistent with my earlier statement that I'd bid 3D and then a natural 4NT over most replies. After 3♦-3♥, I think I'd bid 4♣, planning in due course to bid Keycard for hearts, so that I can make a grand slam try opposite ♠A and ♥Q.

[Halo]

gnasher, on Jun 6 2008, 05:28 AM, said:

louisg, on Jun 6 2008, 04:23 AM, said:

Is anyone worried about protecting the ♠K in a possible 6NT contract?  Over 3♦ partner could easily be forced to rebid 3NT with nothing in spades.

That would be a problem only if partner couldn't bid 3H, so we'd have to have 12 fast tricks without needing the heart suit, eg xx x KQJxx(x) KQJx(x) or a hand with a choice of routes to 12 tricks, like xx Q KQxxxx KQJx.

Bidding notrumps has two downsides: we'd have to bid four of them in order to express our values, making it harder to find the right contract if we belong in a suit or if we have a grand slam on, and 4NT is a slight underbid.

I realise that this last part isn't quite consistent with my earlier statement that I'd bid 3D and then a natural 4NT over most replies. After 3♦-3♥, I think I'd bid 4♣, planning in due course to bid Keycard for hearts, so that I can make a grand slam try opposite ♠A and ♥Q.

I may have misunderstood, but you don't seem to have answered the point made.

If a heart fit does not materialise all contracts are potentially wrongsided after 3D -3NT. You may have twelve top tricks only after two, three or four spade losers.

What would you bid to progress things after 3D - 3NT?

[gnasher]

Halo, on Jun 6 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

I may have misunderstood, but you don't seem to have answered the point made.

If a heart fit does not materialise all contracts are potentially wrongsided after 3D -3NT. You may have twelve top tricks only after two, three or four spade losers.

What would you bid to progress things after 3D - 3NT?

My answer was that the disadvantage of bidding 3D (potentially wrongsiding 6NT) is more than counterbalanced by the advantages (more space for investigating strain and level).

If partner bid 3NT, I'd raise to 4NT.

[pclayton]

I think the answer depends on what we would do with a strong 4522, 4531, and 4513. I would vote that 4513's 4N, 4531's 4D and 4522's 3D.

With Ax, 3D seems clear.

[benlessard]

Either 3D followed by 4D (if natural). Or if i play 5NT PAS im pretty sure i can bid a direct 4Nt. Over 4Nt i expect partner to bid 5Nt (PAS) if he think 6D or 6H is still in the picture. I think 4Nt should suggest 4522 but im 100% sure about that.

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Jun 6 2008, 06:19 PM, said:

I think 4Nt should suggest 4522 but im 100% sure about that.

I don't see how it can be so specific. What are you supposed to do with AKxx AKJxx x Kxx?

I'd expect 4NT to include all strong 4=5=1=3s, as well as 4=5=2=2s with weak diamonds

[Halo]

gnasher, on Jun 6 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

Halo, on Jun 6 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

I may have misunderstood, but you don't seem to have answered the point  made.

If a heart fit does not materialise all contracts are potentially wrongsided after 3D -3NT. You may have twelve top tricks only after two, three or four spade losers.

What would you bid to progress things after 3D - 3NT?

My answer was that the disadvantage of bidding 3D (potentially wrongsiding 6NT) is more than counterbalanced by the advantages (more space for investigating strain and level).

If partner bid 3NT, I'd raise to 4NT.

Thanks Gnasher.

I'll tell you what I really think.

People looking at problems without ownership of a hand are much more likely to not notice protecting a King in a slam auction.

People owning the hand with Kx(x..) do think about it.

Notice that noone (including me or you or even the Giants) mentioned protecting the King of spades.

[louisg]

OK, sounds like it's time for the full story. My partner held the hand in question, and chose to bid 3D. Did he think about the possible positional disadvantages before choosing that bid? I don't know; I haven't asked him. The reason I thought about them was that the full deal was as follows (note how close one of gnasher's constructions was):

Scoring: IMP

---

And our auction was:

1♥-2♦
2♠-3♣
3♦-3NT
4♣-4♦
4♥-5♣
5NT-6♣
Pass

All things considered, I thought we did well to play in clubs (the more solid trump suit) even if 6C is slightly less than 50% to make. Full credit to partner's 5NT (pick a slam) bid. Of course, looking at both hands you'd want to be in 6NT by South, and I was curious to see if anyone chose to bid NT for that reason.

If anyone cares, the SA was onside and both minors were 4-2, so we made it.

[TimG]

Why not 4♣ instead of 3N? I don't think 3♦ had to lead to wrong waying NT.