[rogerclee]

Playing 12-14 NT; if it matters, scoring is favorable MP.

1♦-(1♠)-P-(P)
Dbl-(P)-2♥-(2♠)
P-(P)-Dbl

Does this last double exist? If it does, is it unilateral penalty, takeout, or cooperative (depending on whether partner has a strong NT)?

[jtfanclub]

rogerclee, on Feb 18 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

Playing 12-14 NT; if it matters, scoring is favorable MP.

1♦-(1♠)-P-(P)
Dbl-(P)-2♥-(2♠)
P-(P)-Dbl

Does this last double exist? If it does, is it unilateral penalty, takeout, or cooperative?

I'd call it extremely penalty. But then I'm not expert.

[matmat]

p couldn't respond 1nt, 2nt, make a negative double.

it looks like a borderline hand that made a trap pass, then panicked, then doubled off opps a level higher feeling a little more comfortable.

[helene_t]

Penalty. A 5413 with values just short of a negative double, which may mean some 6 points given the less-than-ideal shape.

I'll have to echo jtfanclub's disclaimer, though.

[han]

Non-exsistent, penalty.

[kenrexford]

Why not? Just becauise partner expects to beat 1♠ does not mean that he won't occasionally toss the opponents an option to bid 2♠ first.

This sounds like a table feel walk-the-dog double to me.

[pclayton]

It simply doesnt exist.

If you cant describe it and ascribe a hand that matches the bid - as I said - it doesnt exist.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Feb 18 2008, 07:28 PM, said:

QJT9x Axxx xx xx

This hand doesn't make a negative double?

Not in my book.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Feb 18 2008, 10:47 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 18 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 18 2008, 07:28 PM, said:

QJT9x Axxx xx xx

This hand doesn't make a negative double?

Not in my book.

Could not imagine this hand considering making a neg X. I think we play a much different game If I were to argue with this hand I would argue with the fact that it didn't pass 1S X but I think 2H is reasonable.

I agree. Back in the day, passing 1♠ might make sense. Today, the opponents want to bid 2♠, so let them.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Feb 18 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 18 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 18 2008, 07:28 PM, said:

QJT9x Axxx xx xx

This hand doesn't make a negative double?

Not in my book.

Could not imagine this hand considering making a neg X. I think we play a much different game If I were to argue with this hand I would argue with the fact that it didn't pass 1S X but I think 2H is reasonable.

That's sort of my point, although I don't feel as strongly about this when I first approached it and maybe it does exist but its a very narrow range of hands that doesn't make a negative double, doesn't leave in a double of 1♠ and yet finds a double of 2♠.

Of course this 'impossible' call is a penalty double.

[gnasher]

pclayton, on Feb 19 2008, 04:56 AM, said:

That's sort of my point, although I don't feel as strongly about this when I first approached it and maybe it does exist but its a very narrow range of hands that doesn't make a negative double, doesn't leave in a double of 1♠ and yet finds a double of 2♠.

A penalty double in a competitive auction will usually fall into a narrow range of hands.

At matchpoints you routinely make tight penalty doubles in competition. This might be an unusual auction for it, but the principle is the same: you bid something that you expected to make; they bid something over it that you expect will go down; you double to protect your plus score.

At IMPs your reasoning might be: I thought 1S was probably one down, but also thought I could make 2H, so I bid that. Now they've bid something which I think is going two down, so I double it.

[benlessard]

The fact that 2Nt is scrambling make it sure the X is penalty.

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Or a similar variant ?

[whereagles]

yes, dbl exists and means just about what justin showed