[awm]

Opponents are silent. North deals. How do you bid this hand:

Scoring: IMP

---

[han]

p - 1C
1S - 2S
pass

North is very close to trying for game, which south would obviously accept.

[pclayton]

I might get there after

1♣ - 1♥*
2♠**

* - spades
** - 4 card support

North has a 7 loser hand and a nine card fit. I think he should at least make a game try.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Pass - 1C
1S - 2S (1)
3D (1) - 4S (2)

(1) We dont raise on 3 cards regulary
thats why North knows with almost
100% certainty, that the partnership
has a 9 card fit
Add to this, that we dont open garbage
in 3rd seat, and that North has a 7 looser
hand, I would say, that this would induce
North to make a move towards game,
showing diamond values
(2) the diamonds values fit

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cascade]

Pass

--- 1♠ 4-card majors opposite a passed hand

2NT about 8+ with four or more spades and no singleton

--- 3♣ mandatory relay (3♠ would show a singleton club)

3♥ maximum with five trumps *

--- 4♠

* This is a maximum because - points are in the long suits, there are two doubletons and with five trumps we had the option of opening 2♠ with a better hand - I would have opened not vulnerable.

[bhall]

This hinges on the range for the ♠ raise. I believe modern practice is to raise with 4 trump and about 13-16 in support, after a third-seat minor opening. If that is responder's expectation, then he is barely worth a side-suit game try. Replace the ♦K with the A, and it's clear-cut. Exchange opener's red-suit holdings, and even 3♠ could fail.

[jdonn]

It would be double-dummying to say you would reach this game, in standard methods anyway. Even then, taking let's say Cascade's auction, you could rearrange the sidesuits in just about any way and game no longer makes. This is just two maximums that fit well, so a very good although not cold game should be missed.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jan 27 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

It would be double-dummying to say you would reach this game, in standard methods anyway. Even then, taking let's say Cascade's auction, you could rearrange the sidesuits in just about any way and game no longer makes. This is just two maximums that fit well, so a very good although not cold game should be missed.

Of course.

I like to aim to get to 23 point games with 5-4 fits especially with a little bit of distribution and a preponderance of aces and kings over queens and jacks.

They don't all make but they score well when they do and they make often enough to make this worthwhile.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jan 26 2008, 05:30 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 26 2008, 03:55 PM, said:

It would be double-dummying to say you would reach this game, in standard methods anyway. Even then, taking let's say Cascade's auction, you could rearrange the sidesuits in just about any way and game no longer makes. This is just two maximums that fit well, so a very good although not cold game should be missed.

I dont agree, I think vul at imps north has a game try over a 2S bid.

Clearly natural bidders will start:

p 1C
1S 2S
?

It's just whether you think the north hand is worth another move. I think so, remember south with a min and 3 spades would pass 1S so you will catch 4 spades or extras.

Are you saying it's only a game try because partner is 3rd seat and because it's vul at imps? Maybe I could buy that argument, I'm not sure.

When you say "extras" don't you really mean "at least 1 point more than a bare minimum"? That's not exactly the same thing.

This would probably have been a better problem to just give the 5-4 hand and the auction P - 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♠ - ?. After all if the south hand posted opposite this was AJxx Ax xxx Kxxx (not a bad hand actually! just a bad fit) we both know the peanut gallery would not be nearly so eager to make game tries. I'm not referring to you or to anyone in particular, just to the masses. I know you remember we even did the experiment once

[Apollo81]

I agree with Justin on this one. I think the North hand is a little better than other people seem to and South could have passed 1♠ so his hand can't be that bad.

[cjames]

pclayton, on Jan 26 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

I might get there after

1♣ - 1♥*
2♠**

* - spades
** - 4 card support

North has a 7 loser hand and a nine card fit. I think he should at least make a game try.

I think this auction is nice and that north should make a game try.

[the hog]

1C 1S 2S
Wouldn't get to game - stiff!

[Roupoil]

I like to play Muyderberg weak twos for this type of hands (ok, 5422 is not great, but honor location is nice). Here, I would open the north hand 2♠, and game won't be missed after that.

[whereagles]

Using the Losing Trick Count, North has 1+2+2+2 = 7 losers. Even discounting 1 loser for the lack of controls, this is a clear invite in LTC methods.

But I agree the North hand doesn't "feel" like an invite... lol.

[Fluffy]

After a sure 4 card raise North's hand is so close, picturing partner's diamond doubleton is very likelly given that nobody is bidding hearts.

I can't tell what I would do without seeing the cards.

[Codo]

To pass 2 Spade is lazy.

Like Fluffy I have no idea what I had done at the table without seeing Souts cards. I hope I had make a try but it is very close.

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with Justin that North, just, has a game try opposite a 3rd/4th seat raise to 2S.

I've been making game tries on these hands more often recently and it seems to work. However it's very close indeed. I'd really like, say, the D10 (or even the CJ) in addition.

If partner opens 1C on all weak NTs (including 4243) a game try is more tempting as we're more likely to have a diamond fit.

[SchTsch]

3♦ by north seems fine