[grrigg]

Scoring: IMP

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Red v. White, the bidding goes 2♠-Pass-4♠ to you. You are playing against people with definite frisky tendencies especially at these colors. Do you let them have or take a risk and bid something (what)?

[hotShot]

You need to pass.

You have 6 looser, if you find a fit, and at these colors your partner should cover at least 4 of them. This is because if he covers 2-3 of them, opps can't make 4♠. To cover 4 looser he would need more than 10 HCP and/or an unbalanced hand.
You hold 3 cards in ♠ and opps should have 8+ (more likely 9-10) cards for their bidding. So your partner is likely to be single or void in ♠ and still has no bid over 2♠.
So he's very weak and not very unbalanced.
Maybe opps stole your 3NT contract, but I doubt that.
(If your partner has something, he has a second chance reopening.)

[mcphee]

Pass is the choice. There are some out there who might suggest that dble of 4S is penalty but this is not a practical approach at all, although I am sure they will give you argument why it is.
Pre-empts work and if you should choose to bid with this hand type you are rarely going plus when partner pulls. Should they pass you will collect as much as 300 or even 500 some days. I bet those days are also rare.

[PassedOut]

Once I held in 4th chair, V vs. NV,

AKQTxx Kx xxx AQx

and dealer opened 3♠. I would have liked to have been playing penalty doubles then (and had no choice but to pass), but that was a once-in-a-lifetime situation. On the plus side, I stayed out of a spade contract that was destined to fail...

[han]

I suggest not posting partner's pass, there may be young readers.

[pclayton]

Pass with malice in your heart.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

given that the opponents are green vs.
red, it seems nothing unusal happend

X is for t/o, and you may well get Xed,
if you play on the 5 level

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

mcphee, on Jan 26 2008, 08:44 AM, said:

Pass is the choice. There are some out there who might suggest that dble of 4S is penalty but this is not a practical approach at all, although I am sure they will give you argument why it is.

Because it makes sense?
Because we don't like being stolen from?
Because...oh, I'm sure you can think of lots of good reasons why.

It makes lots of sense to me to play 2♥ P 4♥ X as takeout.
It doesn't make any sense to me to play 2♠ P 4♠ X as takeout.

The only advantage I can see to playing X as takeout there is that you get to blame partner if he doesn't convert and both 4♠ and what he actually bids goes down. How your partner's supposed to know when to convert is beyond me.

Go through your hand records, and see how many times you've had the auction:

2♠ P 4♠ 4NT

What are you saving that bid for? Blackwood? Minors? Natural? Any two suiter?

It's not like you're saving much space by using X as the takeout instead of 4NT. And on a superfit auction like this, I seriously doubt your partner's praying you'll pass so he can double for penalty.

I'm sure there are some out there who think 4NT is so valuable that you can't afford to use it as forcing takeout, promising 3 suits or 2 including hearts. I'm sure there must be some reason behind their thought. I'm curious to hear it.

[jdonn]

Obvious pass, I don't even feel that bad about it since we probably don't have enough for game, or partner would have acted with his short spades. Take your small plus and be happy.

[the hog]

Well JT we have played X as a 3 suited takeout and 4NT as a 2 suited t/o for years and will continue to do so. It is also not that infrequent as you think.
Why do we play it? Because it works and makes sense. The arguments espoused by you apply equally to a X of 4H, yet I bet you play that as t/o.

On the given hand you have 3 cadrs in S. Pd figures to have 0 or 1. If pd cannot re open you will make nothing, and who knows, 4S may well make.

[grrigg]

OK. I accept passing with this hand, although some of the reasons given are not convincing to me. I do not expect partner to reopen over 4♠ once he passed 2♠ vul vs not. Also, given my hand and the colors I do expect 4♠ to be off a couple on average. If the double was penalty (which it is not) I do think that its a winning proposition.

But moving on, I have sort of a continuation question. Let's say that I hold Kx xxx Kxxx xx or xx xxx xxxx Kxx or some similar garbage type hand and the bidding goes 2♠-pass to me. What is to prevent me from bidding 4♠? It seems that fairly often I will either buy it undoubled or force opponents to guess on the 5 level. Sometimes the person in the 4th seat will be able to double and I will go for a very large number. But, paradoxically, the fewer trumps we have (could be as few as 7 here) the less the chance that that will happen. So I'm wondering if by bidding 4♠ on such horrible hands I would come out ahead on average? I realize that its gambling/bad for partnership etc etc, so lets ignore that and just ask would such a bid come out ahead.

(This did not happen on the deal and isnt the reason for the post, just in case you thought that )

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Well JT we have played X as a 3 suited takeout and 4NT as a 2 suited t/o for years and will continue to do so. It is also not that infrequent as you think.

Well, if it is, it is.

Quote

Why do we play it? Because it works and makes sense.

Does it? Have you looked? Have there been hands where you've said "thank God we had two takeout bids instead of just one"? What is it about this bid that makes you say it works?

Quote

The arguments espoused by you apply equally to a X of 4H, yet I bet you play that as t/o.

The difference is that if I use X as a takeout including spades over 4H, I get to play 4♠ when partner has a few. On the other hand, whether I X or bid 4NT over 4♠, I'm still aiming for 5♥.

When you bid 4NT over 4♥, you don't use that as any two suiter, do you? After all, who wants to play in 5♠ rather than 4? So I assume you use it for minors. That's the hand you can't show any more by using 4NT over 4♠ to mean the same thing X does over 4♥. I haven't played as many hands as some have, but I've never thought 'wow, I wish I had a takeout for the minors' in that position. Certainly such hands exist, I guess I've been lucky up to this point.

The idea that a double of 4♥ should be takeout, and a double of 4♠ penalty isn't an original idea. I think saying that playing it as takeout 'makes sense and it works' is rather dismissive of something not played by an awful lot of people.

[pclayton]

When raising to 4S on void, xxx, xxxx, xxxxxx becomes in vogue, hoping you catch LHO with length, I'll wish I had a penalty double available. Until then I'll pass with with the given hand.

[cherdano]

jtfanclub, on Jan 27 2008, 10:40 PM, said:

Quote

Why do we play it? Because it works and makes sense.

Does it? Have you looked? Have there been hands where you've said "thank God we had two takeout bids instead of just one"? What is it about this bid that makes you say it works?

Yes I have had many hands where I felt "thank god I have a takeout bid that still allows partner to go for 4♠X", and many hands where I thought "thank god I have a takeout bid that shows 2 suits rather than 3".

[the hog]

cherdano, on Jan 28 2008, 12:18 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jan 27 2008, 10:40 PM, said:

Quote

Why do we play it? Because it works and makes sense.

Does it? Have you looked? Have there been hands where you've said "thank God we had two takeout bids instead of just one"? What is it about this bid that makes you say it works?

Yes I have had many hands where I felt "thank god I have a takeout bid that still allows partner to go for 4♠X", and many hands where I thought "thank god I have a takeout bid that shows 2 suits rather than 3".

Yes me too. As I said, thats why we play it.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Jan 28 2008, 12:18 AM, said:

Yes I have had many hands where I felt "thank god I have a takeout bid that still allows partner to go for 4♠X", and many hands where I thought "thank god I have a takeout bid that shows 2 suits rather than 3".

Fair enough. Perhaps it simply shows my lack of skill. I'd say most of the time the auction goes

2♥ P 4♥ X
P

and I don't have 4+ spades I spend the next 2 minutes silently cursing my partner while trying to figure out whether to pass or try my luck at 5 of a minor. I don't think my success rate is better than a coin flip, although sometimes the choice ends up being -790 vs. -800.

I can only imagine the decision is that much worse if the suit is spades.