[gnasher]

West opens a heart and North bids 3D. How should these three pairs of hands be bid:

(1)

---

(2)

---

(3)

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Assume five-card majors, 15-17 notrump, and whatever style of negative doubles you prefer.

Edit: sorry, in my original post I forgot to add the third pair of hands.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2008-February-24, 10:21

[benlessard]

X---(pass)---3Nt

X--(P)---3S--(P)----4H

Neg X at the 3 level (even at the 2 and 1 level) TEND to show 4 in the other M but its not a sure thing. X and raising partner then to show a semi-fit with an alternative strain like (3Nt or 5C in case 2)

[P_Marlowe]

#1 East makes a neg. X, West bids 3NT
#2 East makes a neg. X, West bids 3H,
East raises 3H to 4H

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: #2 missed that West holds 4 spades.
West will bid 3S, and East will raise either
to 4H or 4S.

[helene_t]

Bergen writes in Points Schmoints that over a 3-level intervention, the primary purpose of the negative (sputnik) double is not to locate a fit in the unbid major, but to reach 3N. Thus in 1) and 3), responder X's and opener bids 3N.

2) is nasty. Opener bids 3♠ over the X. Now the question what responder does. we could belong in hearts or clubs. Spades are less likely as the long spades would have to ruff. I like 4♦ as choice of game here. I think that is the realistic way to reach 4♥. If 4♦ is some slam in spades, then either opener must bid 4♥ over 4♣, or responder 4♥ over 3♠.

Discuss with partner if 4♦ is always a slam try in spades or if it is primarily choice of game. Of course responder can still move towards slam after 4♦ even if that was not its primary purpose.

Edit:Ben's suggestions below are better I'm afraid. Interesting question if 3♠ by opener is forcing.

[inquiry]

This is why preempts work.

(1)

1♥-(3♦)-DBL-(PASS)
3NT

I would have opened West 1NT as i play 14-16 1nt

---

(1)

1♥-(3♦)-DBL-(PASS)
3NT

I would have opened West 1NT as i play 14-16 1nt

---

(1)

1♥-(3♦)-DBL-(PASS)
3NT

I would have opened West 1NT as i play 14-16 1nt

---

[Cascade]

East doubles every time then:

1. 3NT end

2. 3♠ followed by some scramble for a fit not sure where you will end

3. 3NT end

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Feb 25 2008, 04:47 AM, said:

(3)
1♥-( 3♦ )-DBL-(PASS)
4♠ -all pass

I can imagine all kinds or alterative auctions. A timid 3♠ bid, a 3NT bid ingoring the spade suit, or a clever 4♦ bid over the double to show spade fit and hand too good for just 3♠, but i would probably just jump to 4♠, right or wrong to show the extra values.

---

If you play double as primarily aimed at 3NT as Helene and Bergen suggest then I think 3♠ needs to be forcing - partner has already underwritten 3NT. (Sure this underwriter loses sometimes).

Therefore there is no need to jump.

[han]

Agree with both of Cascade's posts.

[Cascade]

For those who bid 4♠ ...

do you ever double in the other seat with a spade doubleton?

[gnasher]

Cascade, on Feb 24 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

For those who bid 4♠ ...

do you ever double in the other seat with a spade doubleton?

Or with Jxx AQ xxx KQJxx, when either 3NT or 4H is solid, but 4S might go down with spades 5-1?

This is actually the reason why I asked these questions. We all play that double includes good hands without four spades, so why should we bid as though it promised four spades?

I was wondering if anyone would have opener bid 4D on the third hand, to allow for this possibility. (Inquiry did mention this, but bid 4S anyway.) In other auctions where you're facing a takeout double and don't know what the right strain is, you bid the enemy suit to say so. Why not here?

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2008-February-24, 16:58

[Cascade]

gnasher, on Feb 25 2008, 11:57 AM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 24 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

For those who bid 4♠ ...

do you ever double in the other seat with a spade doubleton?

Or with Jxx AQ xxx KQJxx, when either 3NT or 4H is solid, but 4S might go down with spades 5-1?

This is actually the reason why I asked these questions. We all play that double includes good hands without four spades, so why should we bid as though it promised four spades?

I was wondering if anyone would have opener bid 4D on the third hand, to allow for this possibility. (Inquiry did mention this, but bid 4S anyway.) In other auctions where you're facing a takeout double and don't know what the right strain is, you bid the enemy suit to say so. Why not here?

As I said earlier I think 3♠ needs to be forcing on this auction.

There is a problem with using a cue-bid like this unless it shows something very specific like guaranteeing four spades. If it doesn't imagine responder with 4=2 in the majors then he will have to guess very well as if partner is 3=5=3=2 or similar 4♥ could be best but if partner has 4=5=2=2 4♠ will be best. I suppose it would also be possible to construct hands in which 5♣ is best.

There is though a general problem when you want to offer a higher ranking suit at the game level when a lower ranking game would be playable.

Imagine opener is a good 5-5 in hearts and clubs he could have a problem here when 4♥ is better than 5♣. This problem is more pronounced in a 4-card major system where responder might frequently double 3♦ with three hearts. For this reason I would also play 4♣ as forcing over a double of 3♦.

At a higher level we use 4NT sometimes to show a two-suiter playable in a higher ranking suit:

e.g.

1♣ (1♥) Dbl (4♥)
4NT

Typically 4-6+
(Perhaps not the best example)

Perhaps a cue-bid could fulfil this function at a lower level - that is it would promise the higher ranking suit.

There is a similar problem that comes up from time to time when you have 5=6 in the majors and start by bidding hearts and the bidding gets (relatively) quickly to 3NT or 4minor and you have no convenient way of showing your five-card spade suit.