[rusty]

When someone says their bidding is based on the Kaplan-Sheinwold system. What does that mean?

And how does that differ from the Roth-Stone system?

To me, it seems the two systems are very similar, so I don't know where the differences are.

Thanks.

[hrothgar]

Both K-S and Roth - Stone are based on 5 card majors with a forcing NT response.

Back in the day, K-S was defined by relatively sound minor suit openings and aggressive openings in the majors. However, requirements for openings have declined over the years and I'd no longer call K-S major suit openings particularly aggressive.

These days, if I were asked to describe what differentiates K-S from a random 5 card major / weak NT system I'd focus on the minor suit openings. K-S had quite strict requires for opening in a minor. Auction like

1♣ - 1M
2♣

or

1♣ - 1M
3♣

differ significantly from more "standard" methods.

Roth - Stone is an old system. It dates back to the early 50s. I consider it to be the first "great" 5 card major system. Al Roth developed a ridiculous number of of really remarkable bidding innovations that got integrated into Roth Stone (negative doubles, forcing NT response, unusual 2NT. He's credited with inventing weak 2s. The list goes on and on and on). The man was a phenomenal bididng theorist.

From my perspective, the defining characteristics of the R-S style were

1. Super sound opening bids in 1st/2nd seat
2. Constructive major suit raises
3. Systemic psyches
4. Weak jump shifts

[rusty]

hrothgar, on Mar 28 2007, 05:33 PM, said:

Auction like

1♣ - 1M
2♣

or

1♣ - 1M
3♣

differ significantly from more "standard" methods.

This is great! Would you be able to elaborate more on these bidding sequences by giving examples?

eg 1♣ - 1M
2♣

and 1♣ - 1M
3♣

How would these differ from standard methods?

Thanks again!

[mike777]

Roth Stone in first and second seat you open 14-15 hcp hands. Seldom but possible are very good 13 hcp hands.

So the simple rebid would be most likely 6clubs and 14-15 hcp. This is a bit more than many play in standard first and second seat. You would pass many but not all 13 hcp hands with 6clubs.


So the simple rebid of 2clubs shows more hcp than it would in standard bidding. I will let others explain KS.

[hrothgar]

rusty, on Mar 29 2007, 02:18 AM, said:

This is great!  Would you be able to elaborate more on these bidding sequences by giving examples?

eg 1♣ - 1M
    2♣

and 1♣ - 1M
      3♣

How would these differ from standard methods?

Thanks again!

I don't claim to be an expert in K-S, however, here's a few minor suit auctions that I consider to be distinctive.
Please note, the Bridge World has a good write up of K-S available at http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=e.../ksupdated.html

1♣ - 1M - 3♣ is a game forcing bid

1♣ - 1M - 2♣ is strict limited, showing between 12 and a bad 14

1♦ - 1M - 3♣ is non forcing non-constructive

1♦ - 1M - 2♣ is strong and forcing (absolutely promises a rebid). For example, holding

♠ AKx
♥ xx
♦ AJxx
♣ AQxx

You need to open 1♦, planning to rebid 2♣ over 1♠. Weaken the hand slightly (change the Queen of Clubs to the 10 or even the Jack) and you'd open 1♣, intending to rebid 1N over 1♥ or 1♠

Reverse sequences after a 1m opening are also a bit "weird". You need some what to hand hands like the following

♠ J2
♥ AK
♦ 754
♣ AQJ642

After 1♣ - 1N, you're going to be forced to reverse in a 2 card Hearts suit.

[Stephen Tu]

Kaplan-Sheinwold updated, an early 70's pamphlet system outline Kaplan wrote, is available at
http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=e.../ksupdated.html

Roth Stone is very sound openings, strong NT, 5cM. K-S also has sound minor suit openers, but is weak NT and advocates lighter 5cd major openings.

As for sequences like
1♣ - 1M - 3♣

to some extent it depends if you are talking about the oldest versions of K-S first published in the 50's, or KSU. With KSU, this sequence is a rock crusher, game forcing, just under a 2♣ opening. Lesser hands, stronger than the sharply limited 2m rebid, are handled with light reverses or bids in new suits (e.g 1♦-1M-2♣, F1R), which are frequently 3cd (or rarely 2cd) fragments with honor strength in the suit bid.

I think mike777's description of "14 hcp" to open in RS is a little exaggerated. IIRC a RS opener is ~"14 pts", including distribution. So about a queen stronger than most people playing std these days. I think most 13 hcp would still be opened. Mostly it's eliminating the shapely 10-12 hcp hands people like to open these days.

[mike777]

OK we agree to disagree, I think most 13 hcp hands would be a pass. 5 loser hand ok...maybe a few with long spades.

The shapely 10-12 hands with a 6 card suit and often with a decent second suit are opened very often at the two level.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Mar 29 2007, 05:42 AM, said:

OK we agree to disagree, I think most 13 hcp hands would be a pass. 5 loser hand ok...maybe a few with long spades.

The shapely 10-12 hands with a 6 card suit and often with a decent second suit are opened very often at the two level.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of "Bridge is a Partnership Game" handy, however, I do have a copy of "Picture Bidding" which has an entire chapter on Sound Opening Bids. From my perspective, its a mistake to describe Roth's opening style using a simple metric like High Card Points. Instead, his main concern seems to focus on opener's ability to make a descriptive rebid.

Here's Roth's rules for opening the biding

Be wary of opening the bidding with a one bid with:

1. A spade void
2. Awkward rebids. Thus, with a five card weak major and only three card minors, the rebid is unnatural if partner responds with a foricng NT
3. No Aces
4. Too much distribution and not enough high cards
5. Whenever you are vulnerable; especially when you are vulnerable and they are not
6. When you seemingly have enough high cards to open the bidding, but the suit in which you have to open has no ace, king, or queen
7. Shortness in the majors and the barest of opening bids; value in the minors

...

All 14 point hands with one ace must be opened regardless of rebid problems

[BillHiggin]

It seems at least somewhat strange that this many replies have been posted without mentioning the most obvious difference:
Roth/Stone used a strong 1N opening
Kaplan/Sheinwold was(is) a weak 1N system.

In the late 60's I noticed a lot of advanced partnerships in the Seatle area with "Western Roth/Stone" as the system description on their convention cards.
When I returned some 6 years later (there was a fairly significant military thingy that interupted many of our lives), most of these partnerships were proclaiming "Western 5 card majors". On that flimsy evidence, I would speculate that R/S could well be considered the parent of modern 2/1 (but few have ever been as adamant about sound openings as Al Roth).

In it's earliest phases, the solid opening style advocated by Roth/Stone was really needed to protect their systemic psyches. Bulldog was another similar system developed at around the same time as R/S and K/S, but at least the western advocates of that system pretty much abandoned the systemic psyches because they were opening much more aggressively and found it hard to distinguish between a systemic psyche and a light opening. Of course, all that has been rendered somewhat moot as the ACBL has forbidden psychic controls at the GCC level.

Note that Al Roth is still an advocate of super sound openings.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Mar 28 2007, 10:01 PM, said:

mike777, on Mar 29 2007, 05:42 AM, said:

OK we agree to disagree, I think most 13 hcp hands would be a pass. 5 loser hand ok...maybe a few with long spades.

The shapely 10-12 hands with a 6 card suit and often with a decent second suit are opened very often at the two level.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of "Bridge is a Partnership Game" handy, however, I do have a copy of "Picture Bidding" which has an entire chapter on Sound Opening Bids. From my perspective, its a mistake to describe Roth's opening style using a simple metric like High Card Points. Instead, his main concern seems to focus on opener's ability to make a descriptive rebid.

Here's Roth's rules for opening the biding

Be wary of opening the bidding with a one bid with:

1. A spade void
2. Awkward rebids. Thus, with a five card weak major and only three card minors, the rebid is unnatural if partner responds with a foricng NT
3. No Aces
4. Too much distribution and not enough high cards
5. Whenever you are vulnerable; especially when you are vulnerable and they are not
6. When you seemingly have enough high cards to open the bidding, but the suit in which you have to open has no ace, king, or queen
7. Shortness in the majors and the barest of opening bids; value in the minors

...

All 14 point hands with one ace must be opened regardless of rebid problems

1) Based on same book, I agree with all of your comments. As usual I tend to define all of what you wrote into "simple" rules.

2) Not only strong but 16-18 nt......

3) I do think any 13 hcp with 5 spades and a bit of shape maybe a problem..so I included that...sort of...


4) side note....ks really teaches you what hand to double the opp in when partner opens 1nt......super lesson....ty...EK.

[mycroft]

Note that the original K-S had systemic psychics as well.

Both systems removed them when they were legislated against by the ACBL (rightly, to my mind - they aren't psychic at all, but double meaning bids. If you don't want one of the meanings, then rule them out; and don't let the players get away with "it's a psych. It's mandated by system, but it's a psych." Whether or not they should be allowed is an argument I don't want to get into, but if you think they shouldn't be, just ban the suckers (okay, orignally, they banned the psychic control ("Partner, tell me if you psyched, please.") because the laws didn't allow a ban on natural bids. They do now, if they're weak at the one level). Don't waffle around with "You can, but only if you provide an approved defence. Oh by the way, we won't approve any defence, but we won't tell you that").

Michael.

[goodwintr]

It is hardly ever mentioned (and hasn't been mentioned here) that while Kaplan-Sheinwold was a "five-card-majors" system, it did call for opening one heart occasionally with only four hearts (four strong ones, of course). 1-4-4-4 was one hand that did this. It was in the 1963 book. I don't know whether it was in earlier or later versions.

I don't have the 1963 book, but I heard it in 1963. Yes, "heard" it: Dr. Arthur Dye, the blind bridge master from Charlotte, N. Car., was a Kaplan-Sheinwold fan, and he had his secretary record the book for him on dictaphone tapes. Dr. Dye asked me to re-record it for him, as there were some flaws in the secretary's version. She wasn't a bridge player, and she kept saying things like "Not Rump" for "Notrump." I did the recording, and that's when I learned about the four-card one heart opening bids. (Probably Dr. Dye found my Down East rendition of "One Haaht" to be just as strange as his secretary's version of "One Not Rump," but he never complained to me about it. Maybe he had a third version done after I left town . . . .)

TLGoodwin