[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Jul 23 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

If the system requires permanent full time employees (either on BBO's end or the WBF's) then the system is broken at a very fundament level.  If the system has a centralized point of failure, than the system needs to be redesigned.

Then the BBO system needs to be redesigned I suppose. Employ robots and let them coordinate our almost daily vugraph presentations.

They need no sleep, no food, no drinks, can work 24/7, and they don't complain. Not sure how they communicate with the staff though. You for one should know how much work there is behind the scenes before and during our vugraph broadcasts.

You are no doubt the man to implement this new design, Richard. I wish you good luck (and it's not a joke).

Criticizing is so easy. Do something about it, or at least teach fred and uday how to do it.

Coordinating BBO vugraph has become a full time job whether you like it or not. It's a fact, and if you don't believe me, you should try it. What about starting in August when we will be having broadcasts every single day, with lots of tables and overlaps? I will be happy to take the whole month off and leave it in your capable hands.

Because I don't think the robots will be quite ready for it in 8 days time.

Roland

[geller]

Quote

We need a standardized system that any local tournament sponsor can use to get a Vugraph up and running smoothly and efficiently.

Agree. Let me add though that what's important is for the local organizers to get experience using BBO's VuGraph by first of all broadcasting one or more of their local tourneys. They will probably screw things up (at least a little) the first or second time, but after that they'll get the hang of things.

VuGraph is obviously a good tool for promoting bridge in each country. For example here in Japan most members of our federation (JCBL) live in the Tokyo area or a few other metropolitan areas. By broadcasting national tourneys (with commentary in Japanese at one table) we are promoting bridge on a national level in Japan. In the case of Thailand, Thai is not one of the languages currently supported by BBO but if the Thai federation was interested in doing a translation then they should contact UI or FG. It's just a matter of translating a bunch of bridge and BBO terminology, and can be done a bit at a time.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Jul 23 2006, 05:54 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jul 23 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

If the system requires permanent full time employees (either on BBO's end or the WBF's) then the system is broken at a very fundament level.  If the system has a centralized point of failure, than the system needs to be redesigned.

Then the BBO system needs to be redesigned I suppose. Employ robots and let them coordinate our almost daily vugraph presentations.

They need no sleep, no food, no drinks, can work 24/7, and they don't complain. Not sure how they communicate with the staff though. You for one should know how much work there is behind the scenes before and during our vugraph broadcasts.

You are no doubt the man to implement this new design, Richard. I wish you good luck (and it's not a joke).

Criticizing is so easy. Do something about it, or at least teach fred and uday how to do it.

Sigh... I guess it wasn't a joke on your part.

As I've noted many times in the past, you have a nasty little tendency of trying to make yourself indispensable to the process, all the time self promoting St Roland, vugraph martyr. You've even gone so far as to launch passive aggressive little protests when other people have the nerve to step up and try to take responsibility for other Vugraphs. (I certainly haven't forgotten about the Cavendish). You run a very real risk that people might conclude that your objection isn't the existence of the WBF gravy train, but rather that you aren't on it.

Don't get me wrong, you donate an enormous amount of time and effort to BBO Vugraphs. I very much appreciate this. As does the entire Vugraph audience. Even so, I strongly believe that you should be focusing of methods that permit yourself to distribute responsibility rather than centralizing power. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to this issue, but I've seen the same dynamic play out in any number of volunteer organizations. It never seems to end well.

As for recommending an improved system: Which portion of the Online Vugraph system are you referring to: Local Infrastructure, Global Infrastructure, or Commentary? I have thoughts regarding all three components.

Starting with Global Infrastructure: I'm quite outspoken that revising the messaging infrastructure is critical to the new BBO architecture. An improved messaging system will permit players to subscribe to multiple chat channels at the same time. In turn, this will permit anyone to create their own Vugraph commentary.

Needless to say, I suspect that this is going to have a rather dramatic impact on the Commentary system. Personally, I expect to see multiple different competing groups of commentators emerge. Some of these groups will probably “formal” in nature. (I'd be shocked if you didn't continue to run your little stable) Others will probably be less so. If I were coordinating the commentary system, I'd focus on expanding the capabilities that BBO provides on the web site: Providing a detailed schedule is great, however, I'd also extend this to allow individuals to register their intentions to provide a Vugraph channel.

As always, I suspect that local infrastructure is going to be the biggest stumbling block. Here once again, I like Geller's earlier commentary. Permitting local users to get as much practice as possible with low stakes tournaments is will probably be the best predictor for success in big events... (I'll note in passing that the written materials that were provided to Vugraph operators prior to Sydeny were quite well written)

[Walddk]

Nothing new from you Richard. Your main objective is to insult people - admitted by yourself in various threads. Last time it was Ben (inquiry) who was the victim.

Lots of rubbish and personal attacks from you on a regular basis. If people don't agree with you, they are clueless. No sensible person can take you seriously any more. I for one don't.

Roland

[the saint]

geller, on Jul 23 2006, 01:49 PM, said:

Now that we're all friends again, I want to repeat my comment from upthread.

Thats a shame, I was looking forward to seeing who was going to be providing coverage of the upcoming bout between Walddk and Fksoul. If the WBF don't have a boxing promoter, is it up to BBO to do it all themselves? The debate continues...

(An entirely in character 200th post!!)

[Sheri]

Let's try to keep in mind that we are all after the same thing for the same reasons (quality vugraph coverage because it is enjoyable to watch and good for bridge).

We may not all agree on how best to accomplish this and we may not all like each other personally, but insulting each other will only make it harder for us to work together to achieve the goals we all want.

In this thread some of us (including me) have used words we later regretted and subsequently apologized. For a while it seemed like everyone had returned to civil discussion of the issues that matter, but unfortuntely the personal attacks have started again.

Roland in particular does not deserve this sort of abuse given the massive effort he has put into vugraph during the past 5 years. If you don't like Roland personally or don't like some of his actions, that is your business. But please try to keep in mind the staggering number of people-hours of enjoyment that Roland's work has resulted in. Also keep in mind that Roland has never asked for or received anything in return and that he frequently has to overcome plenty of adversity (bad Internet connections, people complaining about commentators, poorly trained operators, disorganized tournament organizers...) in order to get his job done.

Please give the guy a break - he is one of the few people in the world who has really made a positive difference to the lives of many many bridge players.

On another matter, while I agree with Dave that an onsite BBO server should not be necessary (because it should be possible to arrange for reliable Internet access from anywhere), the fact that we used such a server in Istanbul was not the reason for the serious connection problems during the vugraph coverage of this tournament. We would have had the same problems regardless of whether or not a dedicated server was used (because both local and Internet access were messed up as a result of construction work being done at the playing site).

The WBF takes their onsite vugraph very seriously and I think it is a reasonable safety play for them to use a local BBO server for the purposes of vugraph (presuming that they can ensure that the local network is at least as reliable as the Internet).

Dave correctly points out that using a local BBO server does result in some logistic problems (both for the tournament organizers and for the owners of BBO).

If I was in charge I would probably choose to take my chances with the Internet (and of course make certain that a reliable Internet connection is available), but I don't think the WBF's decision to go the other way during their biggest tournaments (where audience vugraph typically has a lot more than a few people watching) is not at all unreasonable.

Anyways, let's all try to be friends again

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[geller]

Quote

I don't think the WBF's decision to go the other way during their biggest tournaments (where audience vugraph typically has a lot more than a few people watching) is not at all unreasonable.

Wow, a triple neagtive! Agree with what you say. Not sure if that's what you meant though....

[mrdct]

The road map to peace:

1. WBF venue specifications must require broadband internet access as a core non-negotiable requirement.

2. WBF event specifications must contain at least an equal emphasis on the online vugraph as they do on the onsite vugraph.

3. WBF to have a serious look at its personel requirements at major events, many of whom clearly don't need to be onsite in this age of mass communication.

4. BBO software to be upgraded to support multi-channel commentary and some degreee of automation of the commentary assignment process.

5. To the extent to which it is still considered necessary to support an onsite server approach, BBO software to be modified to reduce or eliminate the logistical and security problems, presumably by building-in such functionality to the standard BBO client so that adopting the onsite server approach can be undertaken by any reasonably proficient operator.

The automation I suggest under (4) above would be along the lines of having commentators sign-up as to their availability for sessions via a website or within BBO and then continue to have someone like Roland make the assignments. In addition, operators should be able to quickly issue requests for commentators when they are short by bringing up a list of "pre-approved" commentators who are online and/or issuing invitations to people by country, skill level and/or star status.

[inquiry]

Walddk, on Jul 23 2006, 11:43 AM, said:

Nothing new from you Richard. Your main objective is to insult people - admitted by yourself in various threads. Last time it was Ben (inquiry) who was the victim.

Lots of rubbish and personal attacks from you on a regular basis. If people don't agree with you, they are clueless. No sensible person can take you seriously any more. I for one don't.

Roland

Me neither

[hrothgar]

mrdct, on Jul 24 2006, 12:40 AM, said:

3. WBF to have a serious look at its personel requirements at major events, many of whom clearly don't need to be onsite in this age of mass communication.

I'd actually recommend going a bit further than this, preferring to see a more transparent budget process.

I suspect that if folks need to publish their budgets, a lot of fat will get cut...

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Jul 24 2006, 12:45 AM, said:

Walddk, on Jul 23 2006, 11:43 AM, said:

Nothing new from you Richard. Your main objective is to insult people - admitted by yourself in various threads. Last time it was Ben (inquiry) who was the victim.

Lots of rubbish and personal attacks from you on a regular basis. If people don't agree with you, they are clueless. No sensible person can take you seriously any more. I for one don't.

Roland

Me neither

I'm crushed...
I place such a high value on your opinion...

I'm not sure whether I'm going to be able to go on.

[mrdct]

Fred posing as Sheri, on Jul 23 2006, 02:25 PM, said:

On another matter, while I agree with Dave that an onsite BBO server should not be necessary (because it should be possible to arrange for reliable Internet access from anywhere), the fact that we used such a server in Istanbul was not the reason for the serious connection problems during the vugraph coverage of this tournament. We would have had the same problems regardless of whether or not a dedicated server was used (because both local and Internet access were messed up as a result of construction work being done at the playing site).

Of course I was 10,000km away at the time, but I think that an important distinction to make between Istabul and Sydney is that when the internet connection went down in Istanbul it generally meant no more online vugraph for that session even when it was evident that the internet was back up at the playing venue. Whereas in Sydney when the internet went down, once it was back up again (usually within a few minutes) or when we switched over to dial-up, the broadcast was always resumed (except for round 9 where we only resumed coverage of the match from table 1).

This is what leads me to my distrust and dislike of the onsite server approach.

Although I recognise that the inability to the resume the online broadcasts may also have been affected by problems with the local LAN in Istanbul, the message remains the same, venue specification must require high quality broadband internet.

[geller]

Quote

4. BBO software to be upgraded to support multi-channel commentary and some degreee of automation of the commentary assignment process.

It would be particularly desirable to allow multi-language channels at the same table. For example, the finals of the FIFA world cup are broadcast in every country on the planet in each country's own language. Be nice if the same could be true for the Bermuda Bowl, etc. In that case there would need to be vugraph coordinators for each language. (For example, Roland does a great job but obviously isn't capable of doing coordination for languages he doesn't speak, not to mention the workload burden.)

[geller]

By the way, I've been informed that the WYC in Bangkok will have a broadband internet connection available, so everything will be fine I hope.

[Apollo81]

the saint, on Jul 19 2006, 06:27 PM, said:

nickf, on Jul 19 2006, 10:15 PM, said:

But then we had to deal with some WBF contigencies. For example:

- one WBF official insisted on being provided a hotel suite, rather than a normal room. Whoops ! there goes another couple of thousand dollars.
- one WBF official declared he was bringing his mother and other family members over to Sydney and they needed hotel accommodation (and meals of course). Thats another few thousand.
- The day off leisure activities we had organised werent good enough we were told. Organise a harbour cruise we were told - oops, there goes another $3000.

These examples you give aren't for the benefit of Bridge. They are merely freeloading. For the price of one WBF official insisting on being pampered, we can instead have a vu-graph.

Answers on a postcard which provides better value for money.

Wow. This makes me ill.

[Gerben42]

Quote

But then we had to deal with some WBF contigencies. For example:

- one WBF official insisted on being provided a hotel suite, rather than a normal room. Whoops ! there goes another couple of thousand dollars.
- one WBF official declared he was bringing his mother and other family members over to Sydney and they needed hotel accommodation (and meals of course). Thats another few thousand.

Then the membership organizations should rebel against this and tell them that if you want more than the minimum, it's on your own account. There is NO excuse for a hotel suite or bringing family at the cost of someone else.

Nick, what were your proposed leisure activities? A guided city tour?

[Booze]

Hi

This is not so easy as some might think, I have discussed some with an EBL delegate

They (according to him) prefers to threath Vugraph organisations as press and should be treathed like the press. For a lot of reasons, most online-bridge sites are commercial even BBO in some respect, Fred hopefully sells a lot of his excellent software thru BBO and BBO increases its market value with a lot of users online.

If they are correct maybe BBO has to have their own operators and coordinators ( for commentators ((Roland, who has done an outstanding job)) and one for technical issues).

If WBF or EBL pays an operator from one, do they have to pay for all who wants to broadcast ?? I dont know, but I understand it`s difficult.

Bo

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on Jul 24 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

Then the membership organizations should rebel against this and tell them that if you want more than the minimum, it's on your own account. There is NO excuse for a hotel suite or bringing family at the cost of someone else.

Nick, what were your proposed leisure activities? A guided city tour?

As I recall, the main leisure activities that the Aussies proposed involved a visit to a wildlife park to see koala bears, kangaroos, and the like....

Given that the VERY first thing that i did upon landing in Melbourne was going out to visit a wildlife park and see koala bears, kangaroos and the like I thought this was a damn fine plan. (During my stay must have visted at least a dozen wildlife preserves of one form or another)

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Jul 24 2006, 04:41 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Jul 24 2006, 06:45 PM, said:

Then the membership organizations should rebel against this and tell them that if you want more than the minimum, it's on your own account. There is NO excuse for a hotel suite or bringing family at the cost of someone else.

Nick, what were your proposed leisure activities? A guided city tour?

As I recall, the main leisure activities that the Aussies proposed involved a visit to a wildlife park to see koala bears, kangaroos, and the like....

Given that the VERY first thing that i did upon landing in Melbourne was going out to visit a wildlife park and see koala bears, kangaroosm and the like I thought this was a damn fine plan. (During my stay must have visted at least a dozen wildlife preserves of one form or another)

But did you get to cuddle with a koala?

[nickf]

Gerben42, on Jul 25 2006, 01:45 AM, said:

Nick, what were your proposed leisure activities? A guided city tour?

the players had the morning off and a much needed sleep in. Around lunchtime an army of sydney-based volunteers picked up the players from their hotel and shuttled them to a mini-zoo called Koala Park that features mainly native Australian animals. We had a barbeque lunch there. Fantastic day out and a rare opportunity to pat and hold animals like kangaroos and koalas.

We had provisionally planned to take the teams to a theme/ amusement park called Luna Park in the evening. This is right on Sydney Harbour and we naively thought a bunch of 18-25 year olds woud enjoy letting their hair down on some fun rides with a million dollar view.

The WBF put the kybosh on this unfortunately and with a few weeks to go we were able to negotiate a Harbour Cruise. I am the first to admit that that evening was magnificent. If you ever have the opporunity to visit Sydney then an evening on the harbour is strongly recommeneded.

However, there's an underlying point here. We would have preferred that the WBF stuck to organising the tournament, which is their area of expertise, and did not waste their energies on minutae like sightseeing tours. As residents of Sydney, we believed we knew best how to showcase our city. Furthermore, we just didnt have the budget flexibility to spend a few more thousand here, a few more thousand there.

To their credit, the two main organisors of the event waived their honorariums in order to channel funds towards the event and the people that mattered (the kids). And I use the term honorarium loosely - I think they were going to be paid about $2000 for about 12 months work - some of it almost full time for the last few months.

nickf
sydney