[Miron]

Funny things in Syndey. The same in Czech Republic....

That was the day I start to dislike (or hate) all the EBF.

Yes it is freeloading, but you can't do anything about it. Your only option is to not run the event (usually one month before start or earlier) - and you wish to run it...

[geller]

Quote

I am very saddened by the EBU meeting news and PABC decision to cancel the vugraphs

The PABF (Pacific Asia Bridge Federation, not PABC) is the Zone 6 federation (like the European Federation or ACBL). In addition to the Zone 6 countries (China, Japan, Thailand, Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia,....) Australia and New Zealand also traditionally have participated in PABF championships, even though they are from another zone for Bermuda Bowl purposes.

The PABF junior championships in June were on BBO (lots of problems in the connection though, unfortunately). As far as I know, the World youth championship in August is a WBF event, and PABF has nothing to do with running it (I may be wrong about this). If the above is correct, VuGraph is not a responsibility of PABF, but rather WBF, as well as the host country.

I agree that it would be desirable to have a BBO broadcast. In the case of Japan we have locally available operators. I would hope the Thai federation could similarly train local staff. Our experience suggests it's not that hard. You need one moderately computer-literate guy and a few people to key in the action at each table (ordinary PC users can be easily trained). Hopefully something can be worked out.

[barmar]

Walddk, on Jul 19 2006, 01:33 PM, said:

barmar, on Jul 19 2006, 07:23 PM, said:

Why do they need to pay operators over there?

Operators are also humans and they need to eat, drink and sleep. You don't get that for nothing in Thailand either. It's not a question of getting paid, merely how you cover their expenses.

Roland

When I was a VuGraph operator for the Reisinger last year, I didn't get anything. I was already at the tournament, I simply chose to take the day off from playing in order to operate the VuGraph. I came out ahead monetarily, since I saved a day's worth of entry fees.

But maybe this is only feasible at large tournaments where there are people available to volunteer. If everyone at the tourney is a professional, they only get paid when they're playing and they wouldn't have any incentive to take a day off to operate.

[HedyG]

no Roland, this isnt embarrassing, it is absolutely shocking!
luxury suites in 5* hotels?
bring the whole family on a holiday? including mother and mother-in-law?why not charter a plane while we are at it?
eat in fancy restaurants?( i assume the operators didnt get to eat there?)
and no money to pay the (low)expenses of vugraph operators for junior events?
where does the WBF think the future of bridge is? who is going to pay for their expensive trips if not todays juniors?
please lets get our priorities right!
and one more thing: junior bridge rocks!!!!

[hrothgar]

HedyG, on Jul 20 2006, 07:08 PM, said:

no Roland, this isnt embarrassing, it is absolutely shocking!
luxury suites in 5* hotels?
bring the whole family on a holiday? including mother and mother-in-law?why not charter a plane while we are at it?
eat in fancy restaurants?( i assume the operators didnt get to eat there?)

I was one of the operators in Sydney

NickF took us all out for a most excellent chinese dinner. I'm a real food snob, and I consider this one of the best meals that I've had in a long time...

I'm quite thanksful tht the Aussies were able to provide hotel rooms for the operators (finally got me motivated to fly down to the antipodes)

[the saint]

icey, on Jul 20 2006, 11:36 AM, said:

I am very saddened by the EBU meeting news and PABC decision to cancel the vugraphs.

I don't think these two are even in the same ballpark.

[DenisO]

This is very disappointing news. Anyone know what might be the best way forward to try to influence the WBF in taking a more pro-active role in organising internet Vugraph coverage - and not just of youth; we had fairly meagre coverage at Verona which is the World Championship.

I emailed Panos Gerontopolous, who seems to be the lead WBF man for youth tournaments, about the lack of coverage in Slovakia and expressed the hope that there would be an improvement for Bangkok. No reply but maybe not surprising as when I did get a reply last year to a similar request his attitude seemed to be that the provision of Internet coverage was the responsibility of BBO or Swan or E-bridge which still existed then and not the WBF's.

Wonder if we should be approaching this through our NBOs or is that just wishful thinking ?

Denis

[HedyG]

"I was one of the operators in Sydney

NickF took us all out for a most excellent chinese dinner. I'm a real food snob, and I consider this one of the best meals that I've had in a long time...

I'm quite thanksful tht the Aussies were able to provide hotel rooms for the operators (finally got me motivated to fly down to the antipodes)"


well done by the "Aussies" as was all the rest concerning the organisation! many could take an example on them!

[fred]

In my experience, the one and only thing that can motivate politicians like Panos to behave rationally is the fear of public embarassment.

One thing BBO has going for it is that there are a great many bridge players who log in to our site on a regular basis. This offers us tremendous scope to publicly embarass people as we see fit (not that we have ever done this before).

I will write Panos an e-mail when I get home next week (I am at a tournament now) and let him know that we are willing and able to let many 1000s of bridge players from all over the world know about his idiotic decision that is obviously very much against the best interests of bridge. Maybe that will make a difference...

In the mean time, I would urge as many of you as possible to e-mail Panos yourselves and cc WBF President Jose Damiani (who I am certain would not be happy to hear about what Panos is doing). I do not have access to their e-mail addresses from here, but I am sure someone out there can find these addresses and post them to forums.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

Jose Damiani:
president@worldbridge.org

Panos Gerontopoulos:
youth@worldbridge.org

I agree with Fred. Bombard them with e-mails, and if that doesn't work, there are easy ways of embarrassing them on BBO. It's about time that we all tell bridge administrators what is good for bridge now that they don't seem capable of finding out themselves!

Roland

[hrothgar]

fred, on Jul 21 2006, 07:22 PM, said:

In my experience, the one and only thing that can motivate politicians like Panos to behave rationally is the fear of public embarassment.

One thing BBO has going for it is that there are a great many bridge players who log in to our site on a regular basis. This offers us tremendous scope to publicly embarass people as we see fit (not that we have ever done this before).

I will write Panos an e-mail when I get home next week (I am at a tournament now) and let him know that we are willing and able to let many 1000s of bridge players from all over the world know about his idiotic decision that is obviously very much against the best interests of bridge. Maybe that will make a difference...

The following posting is going to sound very strange coming from me. I'm normally a firebrand and one of the first urging folks to starting storming the barricades... However, now is not the time.

As you note, BBO has some big guns available. I have no doubt that you could easily embarrass the politicos who manage the WBF. You might even be able to effect some kind of change. The problem with this approach is that the power of the Bully Pulpit diminishes with use. As soon as you enter the arena as a player by taking this type of overt political act people are going to start to take notice and, to some extent, start to take sides. BBO's influence is based on the fact that it is starting to enjoy near monopoly status a marketing platform targeting avid bridge players. I suspect that folks are willing to let this slide so long as the benefits outweigh the costs. However, as soon as you start to threat existing power relationships they're going to start taking a second look at BBO and wondering if its possible to “bell the cat”. Expect to see efforts at promoting alternative venues, efforts to limit access to vugraphs, and the like... As much as I would like to see a Vugraph from the youth championships, I don't consider it important enough that I'd recommend taking action.

Equally significant, I'd argue that BBO is still very much on the upswing. BBO's membership (and therefore its power) continues to enjoy very significant growth. Every day that delays a confrontation with the WBF or the ACBL further increases your bargaining power. In short, bide your time.

Personally, I think that there is a much better way that to combat the WBF politicos. Make them irrelevant. Focus on what you do best: Delivering quality products to the user base. If the WBF is unwilling to fund Vugraph, find ways in which BBO can provide the services without them. Every success that you achieve will increase customer loyalty, while further marginalizing the scope of the WBF.

With luck, the war will be over without the WBF ever recognizing when it started.

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Jul 21 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

If the WBF is unwilling to fund Vugraph, find ways in which BBO can provide the services without them.  Every success that you achieve will increase customer loyalty, while further marginalizing the scope of the WBF politicos.  With luck, the war will be over without the WBF ever recognizing when it started.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If BBO does what you suggest, the politicians will be giggling and whispering among themselves:

"Finally, we made BBO do our job".

It's WBF's responsibility, not BBO's! And we need to make that clear once and for all.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Jul 21 2006, 08:41 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jul 21 2006, 07:34 PM, said:

If the WBF is unwilling to fund Vugraph, find ways in which BBO can provide the services without them.  Every success that you achieve will increase customer loyalty, while further marginalizing the scope of the WBF politicos.  With luck, the war will be over without the WBF ever recognizing when it started.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If BBO does what you suggest, the politicians will be giggling and whispering among themselves:

"Finally, we made BBO do our job".

It's WBF's responsibility, not BBO's! And we need to make that clear once and for all.

Roland

I'm not going to reject a good idea just because it makes the WBF happy.

If the WBF politicos view this as a win/win scenario I'll rejoice.
It will make things much easier.

My primary goal is ensuring that a quality Vugraph gets provided to the customer base. If the WBF is unable to rise to challenge, then I see no reason to try to drag them kicking screaming into the 21st century. Far better just to cut them out of the loop.

(BTW, based on my experiences with the WBF trying to micromanage the Vugraph schedules back in Sydney, I'm quite comfortable in stating that cutting the WBF out of the loop is a very good thing. I didn't have to deal with anything other than recording the bidding/play and I found the whole situtation infurtiating. I surprised that Dave Thompson didn't lose it completely)

Of course, over time, this means that the power/influence of the WBF will be marginalized. (Who knows, they might even find that folks are no longer willing to fund all their little hotel suites, entourages, cruises and other such extravagenices). In short,

I'm quite happy to give the WBF all the rope they want.
I'll tie a noose for them them.
I'll even starting looking for nice tall trees where they might take in a scenic view

[mike777]

I must be missing something, do we really want the WBF to spend resources on Youth Bridge and Internet access?
Do we really want to encourage young people to have access to Championship level bridge with players their own age? Do we really want them to get to know older players such as Zia or Sabine?
I do not see how any goodwill can come out of people watching bridge on their internet cell phones or other small devices that are proliferating in almost every country around the world.
Do we really want pictures, or short bios or all that other crazy info stuff that is on the internet?

I really think our youth not to mention old bridge players have better things to do.

Does anyone expect the Chess Championships to be available on the internet with links with further info?

[bid_em_up]

Walddk, on Jul 21 2006, 12:41 PM, said:

It's WBF's responsibility, not BBO's! And we need to make that clear once and for all.

Sorry Roland, but I cannot agree with this statement. While it is a nice sentiment, try and stay based in the real world. Its all about money.

It is the job/responsibility of whoever sees a "benefit" that can be reaped from doing so. That benefit may or may not be monetary. And while Fred has always maintained that BBO would remain a free site (thanks Fred!!), I have to believe he also would like to find ways for it to also generate an income stream to at least cover some expenses (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). I know I would.

If BBO (fred, sheri, et. al) were to decide that BBO would benefit/profit from making the vugraphs (and its transmission) available at all major events........then who is to say it can't become their job? Just because "we" feel that the WBF, ACBL, whoever, "should" do it, doesn't mean they ever will.

At 3000-4000 (or even 300-400) viewers per vugraph, I think a nominal fee would/should cover the costs of paying someone to operate, and probably their expenses as well. Hell, eventually, it might even cover the costs of paying the commentators a pittance, if nothing else, for their time and efforts as well. As someone else suggested, even simply requesting a donation to help offset the costs might well cover all of this and then some.

Corporate sponsorship of vugraph (The Spingold brought to you by Microsoft, Geico, Berkshire Hathaway, Bear Stearns, you get the idea) is another path that could be considered as well......from what I have read, and heard, I would not be the least bit surprised if Mr. Gates, Mr. Buffet, or Mr. Cayne would be willing to at least entertain such a possibility. I do not know if they have been approached regarding such an issue. Of course, these are three of the most obvious choices to seek out regarding promoting the game of bridge, however, I am certain there are others.

[mike777]

Is the WBF or youth bridge just broke? One gets that impression with the lousy Internet info during the World Champs and now youth bridge.

[fskoul]

I don't want to spoil the good party, but NickF we all were there last year in Sydney and we "almost all" remember the - not few at all - days where the Internet was down and thus we didn't even have a Vugraph onsite (which, of course, is ridiculous). That's why, as Fred can easily tell you, in the major WBF events there is a request for a BBO server onsite, and not through the Internet: to comply with the standards of the contract.

Since I also happen to know one-two things about Bangkok too, can you really guarantee that the Internet connection will be good enough so as to HAVE a vugraph at all? Because the "other" solution (i.e. the onsite server) costs much more than a single operator (which is not one, but let it be). The solution to this problem is by far more complicated than what you describe.

I think we all are in favor of a better presentation for any bridge event, but instead of advertising our ignorance (like what mike777 just did), wouldn't it be better to propose something that can really work?

[fskoul]

And just for the record, as the Director of Operations just 1 minute ago confirmed to me, there WILL be BBO coverage in Bangkok. It will be the Open room of the Vugraph match. The only difference is that the onsite Vugraph will not be BBO.

[uday]

I am not convinced of the wisdom of an email campaign. I believe that we could make any person's life annoying enough that he will have someone pay some attention to the issue (maybe just once) but this isnt the right way.

Having customers (and we are the WBF's customers) bombard top management with email will only tick off the vicitms. In the long run, this will possibly work against our interests.

And what are those interests? We want WBF, etc. to put some resources into online coverage of their events. That's really all we want, I think. But money is always going to be an issue, whether the choice is between suites and vugraph, or humane pay for the staff and vugraphs.

We don't anticipate a future at BBO where we force people to pay for vugraph. We've said that before, and this is something Fred, Sheri & I feel strongly about.

Hrothgar and others discuss a future where we could try to make vugraph a cash-positive experience via sponsorship or advertising. If we could achieve that then all our goals would be met, and the WBF would benefit as well. If we could pay for coverage and not bleed too much cash, we'd consider doing so.

How do we do this? Obtaining advertisers/sponsors for WBF tourneys seems easy enough for them but seems considerably harder for us. In fact, it seems near impossible, as far as I can tell.

The ACBL, flaws and all, seems very forward-going w/regard to online coverage. Perhaps it is only bec. Rick Beye is a forward thinker, but he must have support within ACBL management. The recent round-of-64 vugraphs from Chicago are an example of how the ACBL is straining to do better each time. We could still use more help with better online statuses of matches and the like but we seem to be making progress.

So, wrapping up my rambling ;maybe I'm being naiive but perhaps there is a way to get what we want without the agression of public embarassment or mass email campaigns.

[bid_em_up]

fred, on Jul 21 2006, 11:22 AM, said:

In my experience, the one and only thing that can motivate politicians like Panos to behave rationally is the fear of public embarassment.

One thing BBO has going for it is that there are a great many bridge players who log in to our site on a regular basis. This offers us tremendous scope to publicly embarass people as we see fit (not that we have ever done this before).

I will write Panos an e-mail when I get home next week (I am at a tournament now) and let him know that we are willing and able to let many 1000s of bridge players from all over the world know about his idiotic decision that is obviously very much against the best interests of bridge. Maybe that will make a difference...

In the mean time, I would urge as many of you as possible to e-mail Panos yourselves and cc WBF President Jose Damiani (who I am certain would not be happy to hear about what Panos is doing). I do not have access to their e-mail addresses from here, but I am sure someone out there can find these addresses and post them to forums.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Mr. Gitelman,

While I agree with your sentiments in this matter, I find it disturbing that you would make this post on the public forum, and I do not believe this to be the best manner of addressing the issue. My perception of what you are suggesting you might do (use BBO as a means to publicly embarrass an individual) is effectively tantamount to threatening extortion, blackmail, slander, libel and numerous other litigous avenues, ie. cooperate with us (BBO) or we will embarass you.

While you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, your's, by default, will carry more weight on BBO and its forums. If I were to suggest such a thing, people would most likely take it with a grain of salt; your suggesting it makes it more likely to become a reality.

I also believe that to use a venue as great as BBO is, as a means for all of us to exert pressure on an organizing body, goes against the very grain of what makes BBO such a great place to play. That you can indeed play here with anyone in the world, regardless of status, capabilities, political or religious views without encountering the bickering of such issues is something that I believe most players value highly. If you were to put BBO in the middle of such "political' issues, then some of that "greatness" is lost. At least, for me.

Not to mention that it is in total violation of our own "Zero Tolerance" policies.

I also think that calling somebody an idiot (regardless of how much of one they may be) or bombarding them with emails from BBO members certainly will not be conducive to getting their cooperation in any further matters. If anything, it will be counterproductive. I also find it surprising that you, of all people, would use such language, in a public forum, to refer to an executive/officer of an organizing federation, especially in view of BBO's and the forums Zero Tolerance policies. I will conceed the point that you didnt call him an idiot directly, but only referred to his decision as idiotic. To me, it is effectively the same thing.

I respectfully request that you reconsider your position of the possibility of using BBO (and its members) as a means of implementing changes within the various organizing bodies and instead seek out other means of cooperating with them that are beneficial to them, BBO, and the bridge world at large. Several suggestions have been made in this and other threads regarding some possible solutions that would be beneficial for everyone involved.

Sincerely,

Charles Frith
BBO User ID - bid_em_up